2009-03-13T02:53:06 *** Glenda has joined #glendix 2009-03-13T02:53:16 hey Glenda 2009-03-13T02:53:27 lol 2009-03-13T02:53:27 who's Glenda? 2009-03-13T02:53:34 Plan9's mascot 2009-03-13T02:53:43 wow, I walked right into that one. 2009-03-13T02:53:58 is she wearing her space outfit? 2009-03-13T02:54:01 I could have said 'your mom' but whatever ;) 2009-03-13T02:54:05 haha 2009-03-13T02:54:15 my mom is Mary, for future reference. 2009-03-13T02:54:20 !praise thedoctor 2009-03-13T02:54:20 KillerX: Error: There are no praises in my database for #glendix. 2009-03-13T02:54:24 lol 2009-03-13T02:54:27 haha 2009-03-13T02:55:05 ok, so Glenda is a bot, she'll be logging our channel for us, and praising/insulting people as soon as I have some stuff added to her database 2009-03-13T02:55:16 nice. 2009-03-13T02:55:35 does this mean we can't swear at each other now? 2009-03-13T02:57:25 Sure you can ;) 2009-03-13T02:57:33 oh thank god. 2009-03-13T03:06:13 hmm, apparently unionfs still has a bunch of null pointer derefs. 2009-03-13T03:06:16 that would be a problem. 2009-03-13T03:06:28 OMG. story time. 2009-03-13T03:06:39 I manage a lab of students here, and they're... not so bright 2009-03-13T03:06:51 one time, this girl comes up (CS1 Java lab) 2009-03-13T03:07:14 and she asks "My program just had a null pointer dereference... is is supposed to do that?" 2009-03-13T03:18:50 http://www.glendix.org/irc/ <-- interesting stats 2009-03-13T03:18:51 Title: #glendix @ Freenode stats by KillerX (at www.glendix.org) 2009-03-13T03:19:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o KillerX 2009-03-13T03:20:05 oh, I'm totally going for foul-mouthed. AND LOUD! 2009-03-13T03:20:14 *** KillerX changes topic to "This Channel is Logged || A port of Plan 9's userspace to Linux || We've applied to GSoC! (http://glendix.org/gsoc) || http://groups.google.com/group/glendix || Thanks jyujin and kyuba for hosting us!" 2009-03-13T03:20:19 *** KillerX sets mode: -o KillerX 2009-03-13T03:20:24 and it called me STUPID! 2009-03-13T03:20:31 hehe 2009-03-13T03:20:34 wait a few days 2009-03-13T03:20:39 -_- 2009-03-13T03:20:41 then the REAL picture shows 2009-03-13T03:20:47 uriel hasn't even said anything yet ;) 2009-03-13T03:20:51 haha 2009-03-13T03:21:05 can it detect elitism? 2009-03-13T03:21:35 I'm kinda glad, though. Everyone at RIT says I'm the most elitist bastard going. Glad to know I'm not :) 2009-03-13T03:24:42 lol 2009-03-13T03:27:08 jyujin_: I'm running Glenda from kyuba.org 2009-03-13T03:27:13 hope you don't mind :) 2009-03-13T03:27:22 also setup a cron job to update the IRC stats every hour 2009-03-13T03:30:14 nice to know both me and jyujin_ are on the same timezone ;) 2009-03-13T03:30:30 KillerX: where are you again? 2009-03-13T03:30:37 thedoctor: Amsterdam 2009-03-13T03:31:08 oh man. 2009-03-13T03:31:20 can I visit? 2009-03-13T03:31:28 welcome anytime ;) 2009-03-13T03:31:32 heh 2009-03-13T03:31:37 Murmuria: has planned a trip in May I think 2009-03-13T03:32:29 Also I might be visiting the states in April, and then again during June-August 2009-03-13T03:32:37 which ones? 2009-03-13T03:33:00 Mostly California (bay area) and maybe Atlanta 2009-03-13T03:33:09 nice 2009-03-13T03:33:30 well, except the Atlanta part. Staggering literacy they have there :-P 2009-03-13T03:33:41 hehe 2009-03-13T03:33:48 only going to visit because my Uncle lives there 2009-03-13T03:33:55 heh. 2009-03-13T03:33:56 he teaches at the state university 2009-03-13T03:34:03 Need to get my hands on a sweet new macbook pro during one of those trips 2009-03-13T03:34:10 hide, and stay away from trailer parks. They attract hurricanes, you know 2009-03-13T03:34:12 electronics are so cheap in the US compared to Europe 2009-03-13T03:34:28 I didn't want the new one until they offered no-glass 2009-03-13T03:34:31 and now I do. 2009-03-13T03:34:45 but Iwant the 17 inch, but it has no removable battery... 2009-03-13T03:34:50 so I would have to get 15. 2009-03-13T03:34:52 :) 2009-03-13T03:34:52 do not want. 2009-03-13T03:35:00 I was contemplating on either 2009-03-13T03:35:21 I have a big monitor now, so 17" really isn't worth the extra size and weight 2009-03-13T03:35:23 if someone gave me a pick right now, I'd have to say 15. 2009-03-13T03:35:29 they're not much heavier. 2009-03-13T03:35:34 I can't open my current 17" in an aircraft fully 2009-03-13T03:35:35 it's totally bearable. 2009-03-13T03:35:39 haha 2009-03-13T03:35:42 so I'm leaning towards the 15" 2009-03-13T03:35:55 yeah. 2009-03-13T03:36:10 I have a 15" 2008 model 2009-03-13T03:36:14 it makes me happy 2009-03-13T03:36:24 nice :) 2009-03-13T03:36:31 do you run gentoo natively on the laptop? 2009-03-13T03:36:34 I used to 2009-03-13T03:36:35 yep 2009-03-13T03:36:40 but then my laptop was getting too hot 2009-03-13T03:36:41 it's so very nice. 2009-03-13T03:36:53 (mine's a 1st gen 17", the ones with the heat problems) 2009-03-13T03:37:02 ha, I notice not much heat difference with the new one 2009-03-13T03:37:07 Under Mac OS, it seems to run cooler 2009-03-13T03:37:18 Use VMs for Linux. Minix, Plan 9 and so forth 2009-03-13T03:37:22 did you throttle the CPU governor? 2009-03-13T03:37:22 Fusion seems to be doing well 2009-03-13T03:37:44 I forgot I had to change my to ondemand. Got much cooler and more battery 2009-03-13T03:37:51 Hmm, I don't believe I did 2009-03-13T03:38:20 Ok, it's getting late. I need to pack and sleep 2009-03-13T03:38:23 Or maybe sleep and pack 2009-03-13T03:38:29 Either way, I better get going 2009-03-13T03:38:32 ok 2009-03-13T03:38:34 Good luck for GSoC all! :) 2009-03-13T03:38:34 have fun 2009-03-13T03:38:40 indeed 2009-03-13T03:38:48 See you next Sunday! 2009-03-13T03:38:50 safe travel 2009-03-13T03:38:50 bye bye 2009-03-13T03:38:51 KillerX: have fun! 2009-03-13T03:38:56 cheerio 2009-03-13T03:39:04 *** KillerX has quit IRC 2009-03-13T03:39:22 so has anyone read the regular expressions paper on swtch.org? 2009-03-13T03:39:46 I had no idea that everyone is so damn incompetent. I mean, this is pretty obvious stuff. 2009-03-13T03:45:24 you'd think. tell it to most of the world. 2009-03-13T03:46:03 I just don't understand how anyone thinks backtracking is a good idea... 2009-03-13T03:46:17 and I had no idea perl did... 2009-03-13T03:53:51 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-13T05:08:01 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-13T05:42:26 *** Karurosu has quit IRC 2009-03-13T05:42:41 *** Karurosu has joined #glendix 2009-03-13T05:56:58 02:00 < thedoctor> and she asks "My program just had a null pointer dereference... is is supposed to do that?" 2009-03-13T05:57:08 maybe she was hitting on you... 2009-03-13T05:58:20 anyway, on of my favoritie questions to ask in interviews is: "What is wrong with Unix and how would you fix it?" 2009-03-13T05:58:38 got that one from Rob 2009-03-13T05:59:11 too easy, especially if you think you might be talking to rob. 2009-03-13T05:59:21 what is wrong with Plan 9, and how would you fix it? 2009-03-13T06:11:27 uriel: no, she was just dumb 2009-03-13T06:20:37 what is wrong with plan9? 2009-03-13T06:21:07 c'mon, i can't give you the answer. that'd be cheating. ;-) 2009-03-13T06:21:09 I'd say one problem is that you can still see that there are multiple computers 2009-03-13T06:21:35 I have a laptop, a phone, and two servers. I want to be able to pretend there's just one 2009-03-13T06:22:10 process migration might help that (I know it was intentionally omitted, but) 2009-03-13T06:22:43 making those boundries invisible is a really interesting problem, and would be really powerful, but it's a *crazy* hard problem. 2009-03-13T06:22:55 like, Grand Unified Theory hard. 2009-03-13T06:23:01 maybe if /proc were a little less /representational/ and bit more implementational 2009-03-13T06:23:19 that'd be interesting. 2009-03-13T06:23:38 where you could essentially move the mount to another machine 2009-03-13T06:24:00 there doesn't seem to be that kind of functionality (or I'm ignorant of it) 2009-03-13T06:24:22 you should be able to cart your namespace around with you, no? 2009-03-13T06:24:50 "I need more power now", instead of running cpu and creating your ns, just move to another computer with what you have 2009-03-13T06:25:22 well, cpu *sorta* carts your namespace around. it does its best to recreate it on the new system, and gives you the original at /mnt/term. 2009-03-13T06:25:52 and if it could bring /proc with it... bam 2009-03-13T06:27:25 there's been work at merged procs, for clustering stuff. xcpu and friends. 2009-03-13T06:27:36 yeah, which is really interesting 2009-03-13T06:27:37 still, it's not migration, just a merged representation. 2009-03-13T06:27:51 it's a step in the right direction. 2009-03-13T06:31:04 I guess really what's needed is a way to copy a namespace portable without having to inherit it from a parent 2009-03-13T06:31:36 uriel: are you still there? 2009-03-13T06:31:49 that's hard, because it means you have to re-get all the resources. which you might not be able to do from your new location. 2009-03-13T06:32:28 right. I get home, what if my work computer shut off. 2009-03-13T06:32:58 05:13 < thedoctor> what is wrong with plan9? 2009-03-13T06:33:03 god, too many things to list ;P 2009-03-13T06:33:20 regardless, the question's much more of a challenge. 2009-03-13T06:33:32 (as long as you exclude things like "no native limbo") 2009-03-13T06:33:36 uriel: go on 2009-03-13T06:33:53 what would you do differently? 2009-03-13T06:35:21 heh, it is a long list really, just woke up, maybe after I get some breakfast 2009-03-13T06:36:38 aww, I was just about to head out :P 2009-03-13T06:36:43 it's almost 2 am here :P 2009-03-13T06:37:05 6am here 2009-03-13T06:37:12 oh, in other news, I meant to ask you for specific things that need to be addressed with union mounts 2009-03-13T06:39:01 you know... I think GBU bloat has seriously hindered my understanding of anything. I look at the plan 9 kernel source and I can grok the damn thing. 2009-03-13T06:39:11 look at the source code for ls or host and I'm totally lost. 2009-03-13T06:57:28 night all.. or good morning... whatever 2009-03-13T07:18:08 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-13T14:55:36 *** olegfink has quit IRC 2009-03-13T14:58:24 *** olegfink has joined #glendix 2009-03-13T17:36:45 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-13T17:37:23 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-13T18:40:38 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-13T18:41:40 hello 2009-03-13T19:54:23 good morning 2009-03-13T19:54:28 our gsoc application is in, I hope :) 2009-03-13T19:54:47 it is 2009-03-13T19:54:50 cool 2009-03-13T19:55:19 so uriel, now that you've had breakfast. What did plan 9 do wrong? 2009-03-13T19:56:32 I didn't have lunch 2009-03-13T19:57:16 o_O 2009-03-13T19:58:25 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-13T20:17:16 Plan 9 didn't do it wrong... the labs did :-) with their licensing and failure to get it out to interested people early enough before everyone got Linux momentum :-) 2009-03-13T20:18:02 bah, not the question. 2009-03-13T20:18:21 the question was what's wrong with plan 9 (the OS) and how would you fix it. 2009-03-13T20:18:54 honestly, I can't think of much that's wrong with Plan 9. I would like to be able to run linux programs, but someone addressed that :0) 2009-03-13T20:19:04 I can think of quite a few things 2009-03-13T20:19:18 uriel: go on 2009-03-13T20:19:26 part of me thinks the fact that "someone addressed that" is a new thing wrong with plan 9. ;-) 2009-03-13T20:20:08 anothy_x: I don't think that's so bad. Especially since they did it without a lot of intrusive changes 2009-03-13T20:20:11 9p latency handling, the '#' namespace, /srv, 64 bit kernel... 2009-03-13T20:20:22 uriel: the # thing does irk me a bit. 2009-03-13T20:20:37 uriel: yeah, 9P could be improved 2009-03-13T20:20:40 '#' doesn't irk me so much, because nobody has thought of somethinb better 2009-03-13T20:20:40 9p latency isn't so great... but octopus deals with that doesn't it? 2009-03-13T20:21:05 9p latency is good, the problem is its sensitivity to hig latency links 2009-03-13T20:21:08 uriel: yeah... you've got to start somewhere, but I hate trying to figure out how to type weirdo characters to mount devices :) 2009-03-13T20:21:52 What's wrong with /srv? 2009-03-13T20:22:01 it is kludgy 2009-03-13T20:22:11 see the discussion of srv^2 for details 2009-03-13T20:22:16 in that it's global? 2009-03-13T20:22:23 that is part of the problem 2009-03-13T20:22:30 and that it is 'magic' 2009-03-13T20:22:43 if you mount something from /srv/, you can't open it anymore 2009-03-13T20:22:56 and other strange kirks and limitations 2009-03-13T20:23:05 the global thing isn't a "problem", per se. you should just *also* be able to have your own. 2009-03-13T20:23:10 inferno goes in the other direction. 2009-03-13T20:23:13 uriel: have you seen http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~412/history/2006F/nscross/ ? 2009-03-13T20:23:15 Title: Namespace Crossings for Plan 9 (at www.cs.cmu.edu) 2009-03-13T20:23:20 i heard brazil had a new /srv that solved some of the issues, no clue about how it worked (had per user-dirs?)) 2009-03-13T20:23:26 uriel: where was the srv^2 discussion? 2009-03-13T20:23:47 9times 2009-03-13T20:23:48 anothy_x: yeah inferno doesn't have srv does it? 2009-03-13T20:23:50 ah 2009-03-13T20:23:52 I'll look 2009-03-13T20:24:31 it does. 2009-03-13T20:24:41 but it's per-process (or roughly) 2009-03-13T20:24:42 thedoctor: I have seen that, I'm not too convinced 2009-03-13T20:24:56 anothy_x: well I meant not the same way Plan 9 does it... with all the implications. 2009-03-13T20:25:03 they make an ok argument, haven't looked at their solution 2009-03-13T20:25:16 wait... DOOM was ported to Plan 9? 2009-03-13T20:25:19 son of a gun 2009-03-13T20:25:22 also, I found it interesting to note that my opinion of what's wrong with plan 9 is the same as Ken's 2009-03-13T20:25:27 i don't recall anything from brazil like that. 2009-03-13T20:25:28 I thought Carmack was going to do that like 13 years ago :-) 2009-03-13T20:25:40 (ken also thinks the latency handling in 9P could be better) 2009-03-13T20:25:45 for the most part, brazil was just the pre-release name of 3e. i can't think of any other differences. 2009-03-13T20:26:30 thedoctor: ken's answers are well known/expected, after all, inferno was pretty much in that direction 2009-03-13T20:27:31 anothy_x: other than /srv changes? I remember some comments by rob about stuff that got pulled out, but can't remember the details 2009-03-13T20:27:49 i don't remember /srv being different. 2009-03-13T20:28:03 it's been a while, clearly. maybe. 2009-03-13T20:28:53 uriel: it's just interesting that they said not having process migration (which would probably address the problem of having a "unified" system) was intentionally left out. 2009-03-13T20:29:18 Didn't plan B have process migration? 2009-03-13T20:29:22 I doubt very much that pocess migration would solve anything 2009-03-13T20:29:27 and it would create many problems 2009-03-13T20:29:52 uriel: it would solve some of the problems with cpu if it were done properly. 2009-03-13T20:29:55 specially in a distributed system, starting with how to carry network connections around 2009-03-13T20:30:08 I don't see any problems with cpu(1) 2009-03-13T20:30:34 The problem with Plan 9 is people don't agree what the problems with Plan 9 are 2009-03-13T20:30:44 you can't move a namespace and processes to another machine with it. IMO, that's a problem 2009-03-13T20:30:51 not a /big/ one, but a nice-to-have 2009-03-13T20:30:52 leimy: that's a feature, not a bug. 2009-03-13T20:30:56 heh 2009-03-13T20:31:13 thedoctor: you still didn't explain why it is a problem 2009-03-13T20:31:22 or how it would help 2009-03-13T20:31:59 a solution to represenation of global namespaces on the other hand, would be one of the missing pieces 2009-03-13T20:32:21 prot!address!port/path/file is not quite good enough IMHO 2009-03-13T20:32:26 uriel: moving around from computer to computer is not as clean if you can't 2009-03-13T20:32:50 thedoctor: see Plan B for a solution to that 2009-03-13T20:33:14 uriel: yeah. 2009-03-13T20:33:28 what you want to migrate is not processes, but data and state 2009-03-13T20:33:51 and for that 9p is good enough 2009-03-13T20:34:14 uriel: that is one way of doing it, and yes I think that is cleanest. 2009-03-13T20:34:47 someone wrote a paper on "crash only" software. Basically that programs should be coded to resume states. 2009-03-13T20:34:51 but plan9 doesn't seem to do it. 2009-03-13T20:35:13 * uriel wasn't too convinced by the idea 2009-03-13T20:35:30 I guess you don't move around much. 2009-03-13T20:35:34 although if your components are simple and with clean interfaces, that is sort of a given 2009-03-13T20:35:42 thedoctor: i do 2009-03-13T20:35:54 then I'm surprised you don't have this problem. 2009-03-13T20:36:07 note that in plan9 one usually uses diskless terminals which can be booted from anywhere 2009-03-13T20:36:11 (or that is the idea) 2009-03-13T20:36:37 one of the innovations plan9 provided already in the 80's was that people at the labs had the same environment at home and at work 2009-03-13T20:36:58 thedoctor: that I don't have what problem? I was talking about crashonly software 2009-03-13T20:37:19 uriel: I mean wanting to move your entire state to another computer without having to reconstruct it. 2009-03-13T20:37:21 and yes, lunix software and other is insanely unreliable, but that is to be expected of such byzantine constructions 2009-03-13T20:37:30 thedoctor: I do 2009-03-13T20:37:43 so how do you get around it. 2009-03-13T20:38:01 and again, plan9 makes it easier than any other system I know, and Plan B shows that it can be taken even further without any fundamnetal changes 2009-03-13T20:39:46 uriel: so you're content to simply rebuild your state if you move? 2009-03-13T20:41:12 depends 2009-03-13T20:41:31 elaborate? 2009-03-13T20:41:33 note that in some cases you want the environment to be concurrently available 2009-03-13T20:41:58 how do you get around that without being able to attack to another namespace? 2009-03-13T20:42:02 attch* 2009-03-13T20:42:05 so process migration really doesn't cut it, on the other the more centralized Plan B model works better 2009-03-13T20:42:21 ? why I'm not able to attach to another namespace? 2009-03-13T20:42:31 I am, last I checked 2009-03-13T20:44:21 I thought the only way to access a namespace was via direct inheritance. 2009-03-13T20:44:35 uhu? obviously not 2009-03-13T20:44:41 that would be madnes 2009-03-13T20:46:01 so why can't cpu give you the same environment that you're running it? 2009-03-13T20:46:09 it has to just reinterpret your login profile, right? 2009-03-13T20:46:10 it doesn't 2009-03-13T20:47:51 ugh. 2009-03-13T20:48:02 it ? 2009-03-13T20:48:07 in* 2009-03-13T20:48:11 cpu 2009-03-13T20:49:00 look carefully, it is not the *same* namespace 2009-03-13T20:49:08 it *includes* your namespace 2009-03-13T20:49:19 god damn it, that's what I'm saying 2009-03-13T20:49:40 no, because cpu preciselly illustrates how namespaces are not just inhereited 2009-03-13T20:50:13 you can't inherit a namespace from a remote process, you can't rfork(2) over the network, but the namespace is exported and imported 2009-03-13T20:50:52 which is *not* what I'm trying to say 2009-03-13T20:51:22 19:35 < thedoctor> how do you get around that without being able to attack to another namespace? 2009-03-13T20:51:39 that is precisely what cpu does 2009-03-13T20:51:43 uriel: there's more context to it than that. 2009-03-13T20:51:57 I'm saying cpu is broken because it can't get the *same* namespace 2009-03-13T20:52:12 nevermind, you don't listen to a fucking thing I say 2009-03-13T20:52:23 uhu? 2009-03-13T20:52:44 you say you can't attach to another ns, and now you complain that you can? i don't get it 2009-03-13T20:53:05 if you want it to be the same namespace, just do bind /mnt/term/ / 2009-03-13T20:53:20 and you are done, same namespace locally and remotely, not of any use, but... 2009-03-13T20:53:52 I'm saying you can't bring over the *exact* state that you have via cpu 2009-03-13T20:54:15 because importing a namespace is not enough, and /proc is just representational 2009-03-13T20:54:33 ? 2009-03-13T20:54:36 why is not enough? 2009-03-13T20:54:54 not enough the way cpu does it. 2009-03-13T20:55:01 why? 2009-03-13T20:55:16 which is apparently still given in the BUGS section of the man page. 2009-03-13T20:55:49 "binds and mounts done after the terminal lib/profile is run are not reflected..." 2009-03-13T21:01:14 do you see what I'm trying to say? 2009-03-13T21:01:49 no 2009-03-13T21:01:59 and i don't know what the man page is talking about 2009-03-13T21:02:12 but I need some food 2009-03-13T21:02:54 well, then, I don't know how to explain it. 2009-03-13T22:47:19 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-13T23:17:05 hi 2009-03-14T00:34:59 *** Glenda` has joined #glendix 2009-03-14T00:37:47 *** Glenda has quit IRC 2009-03-14T02:16:17 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-14T02:16:26 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-14T02:42:11 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-14T02:45:00 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-14T03:46:04 anyone heard of pdumpfs? 2009-03-14T03:46:23 hackish script to back up your stuff, unchanged files stored as hard links. 2009-03-14T04:46:03 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-14T04:46:35 jyujin_: your overlay is busted. 2009-03-14T04:46:40 and preventing me from syncing :P 2009-03-14T07:00:22 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-14T12:34:57 thseriously? thats bad 2009-03-14T12:34:58 :D 2009-03-14T12:35:05 aw blimey 2009-03-14T12:35:17 i should be online more often 2009-03-14T13:07:21 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-14T13:08:18 Can I join the google groups for glendix, do you folks recommend joining it ? 2009-03-14T13:08:49 codo: obviously yes 2009-03-14T13:11:11 great! 2009-03-14T13:52:28 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-14T14:10:37 lol 2009-03-14T14:10:46 and hi uriel 2009-03-14T16:09:41 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-14T16:34:25 I like how someone thought it was necessary to write a >100 line perl program to find the status of a ups order from a webpage 2009-03-14T16:34:34 when a 5 line shell script suffices 2009-03-14T16:36:15 heh 2009-03-14T16:36:30 well, gotta hate shell... sort of... and hi 2009-03-14T16:36:37 thedoctor: overlay seems to be working, btw 2009-03-14T16:36:41 ah, cool 2009-03-14T16:36:45 that one's still on the old server, which is a bit nuts 2009-03-14T16:36:58 so when it doesnt work, just hit it with a stick and try again 2009-03-14T16:36:58 :D 2009-03-14T16:37:03 looks like your server flaked 2009-03-14T16:37:08 yeah, I hear you 2009-03-14T16:37:15 RIT deleted my a record 2009-03-14T16:37:21 so my server has no DNS entry. 2009-03-14T16:37:55 huh? 2009-03-14T16:37:56 ouch 2009-03-14T16:38:04 yeah, they're idiots. 2009-03-14T16:38:12 meh... 2009-03-14T16:38:13 Windoze lusers 2009-03-14T16:38:18 lol 2009-03-14T16:38:24 i remember someone else from rit i think... 2009-03-14T16:38:36 oh? 2009-03-14T16:38:47 one of our ex devs, does "ryan hope" mean anything to you? 2009-03-14T16:39:16 hm... 2009-03-14T16:39:20 that does sound familiar. 2009-03-14T16:39:28 pretty sure he was from rit 2009-03-14T16:39:38 got into a fight with joshua, things got outta hand a bit 2009-03-14T16:39:55 I'd have to see a pic... I know lots of Ryans, but last names are not something you hear often here. 2009-03-14T16:40:04 hehe 2009-03-14T16:40:09 and I generally ignore names, anyway... 2009-03-14T16:40:21 yeah i just kinda thoguht it was a funny coincidence 2009-03-14T16:40:22 there's this guy that's always in the CS student center working on his masters 2009-03-14T16:40:32 we get along, talk about gentoo, etc. 2009-03-14T16:40:38 I call him Pepsi Guy 2009-03-14T16:40:39 hmmm 2009-03-14T16:40:41 lol 2009-03-14T16:40:45 he always has a bottle of pepsi. 2009-03-14T16:41:00 but, yeah, it is a cool coincidence. 2009-03-14T16:41:01 funny, i had the same issue with one of my ex grilfriends 2009-03-14T16:41:04 get this! 2009-03-14T16:41:05 haha 2009-03-14T16:41:10 :D 2009-03-14T16:41:13 I was in Massachusetts for a couple months 2009-03-14T16:41:17 so I went to the local LUG 2009-03-14T16:41:23 gave my talk on git, had pizza 2009-03-14T16:41:33 the main guy, Andy, worked for AMD 2009-03-14T16:41:59 cool :D 2009-03-14T16:42:04 he asked if I knew these guys (twins) from RIT, and I did, met them during intro 2009-03-14T16:42:30 then, later on, I was talking to the sysadmin's graduate assistant in the CS dept. and we mentioned those guys 2009-03-14T16:42:46 and he had worked for AMD in Mass when I was out there. 2009-03-14T16:42:54 :D 2009-03-14T16:42:58 yeah that IS cool :D 2009-03-14T16:43:08 unfortunately, he never went to the LUGs, but he knew Andy really well. 2009-03-14T16:43:14 it's a /very/ small world. 2009-03-14T16:43:32 *nod* 2009-03-14T16:43:34 hehe 2009-03-14T16:44:00 i had no idea the rit was that popular 2009-03-14T16:44:00 ;) 2009-03-14T16:44:10 15,000 students. 2009-03-14T16:44:18 hmmm sounds decent 2009-03-14T16:44:23 I do'nt know how... it's actually kinda crappy here. 2009-03-14T16:44:29 :D 2009-03-14T16:44:33 sounds like mine 2009-03-14T16:44:39 which? 2009-03-14T16:44:41 (university of tübingen/tubinga, whichever) 2009-03-14T16:45:01 is that near onsabruck? 2009-03-14T16:45:17 uh, lets say roughly 40 minutes by car from stuttgart 2009-03-14T16:45:31 ok 2009-03-14T16:45:39 probably nowhere near onsabruck, then. 2009-03-14T16:45:46 we have a couple profs here from there. 2009-03-14T16:45:51 actually wrote a book on plan 9 2009-03-14T16:47:04 cool? 2009-03-14T16:47:15 yeah our speciality is functional languages and compiler design it seems 2009-03-14T16:47:32 RIT's is... out there. 2009-03-14T16:47:36 intro is Java 2009-03-14T16:47:43 then you have a mixed bag. 2009-03-14T16:47:43 meh :s 2009-03-14T16:47:51 well intro is scheme here, java after that 2009-03-14T16:47:53 heh 2009-03-14T16:47:54 couple guys like hardware 2009-03-14T16:48:03 couple like compiler design/languages 2009-03-14T16:48:14 others are big theory/crypto nuts 2009-03-14T16:48:22 our introductory courses sued to include C and assembly... oh the good ole days. we do learn how to create ALUs for microcontrolelrs though, so that includes assembly 2009-03-14T16:48:25 heh 2009-03-14T16:48:26 the only thing that gets neglected here is OS, really 2009-03-14T16:48:39 I learned C first. didn't hurt me a bit. 2009-03-14T16:48:49 I think scheme -> C would be good. 2009-03-14T16:49:04 not sure about that oen here. well the higher two years include a lot of things so.. 2009-03-14T16:49:10 yeah i guess 2009-03-14T16:49:18 i love C, and i can see how scheme would be good 2009-03-14T16:49:23 in fact i like a lot of things about both 2009-03-14T16:49:45 adding prolog to the mix would also be good. 2009-03-14T16:50:10 and perhaps a real OO lang (not Java or C++) 2009-03-14T16:50:28 just to get used to doing multiple paradigms 2009-03-14T16:50:32 but most things should be in C. 2009-03-14T16:50:38 aye 2009-03-14T16:50:50 at least most things that arent being done in C these days really ought to be 2009-03-14T16:51:09 instead everyone just keeps claiming C was hard to learn and tricky 2009-03-14T16:51:10 meh 2009-03-14T16:51:30 BOOO HOOOO! C is HARD! I WANT JAVA!!! 2009-03-14T16:51:38 and that is all you need to do to make a whole department 2009-03-14T16:51:42 a whole curriculum 2009-03-14T16:51:45 bend to your will 2009-03-14T16:51:48 as a freshman. 2009-03-14T16:51:57 lol 2009-03-14T16:52:04 yeah, ridiculous isnt it? ;D 2009-03-14T16:52:17 (actually, you need to threaten to switch to SE or IT and tell everyone you know to avoid CS, especially pretty women) 2009-03-14T16:52:42 i still remember how much fun it is to watch the java nut profs explain how there are no pointers... but how sometimes theres a difference between objects with the '==' operator even though both seem to be the exact same... 2009-03-14T16:52:52 *g* 2009-03-14T16:53:20 of course there are no pointers. 2009-03-14T16:53:31 That's why you get a NullPointerException! 2009-03-14T16:53:37 right :D 2009-03-14T16:53:40 because Java doesn't have any so they're all null! 2009-03-14T16:53:56 because using a null pointer without having em is bound to blow up in your face :D 2009-03-14T16:54:26 it would crash your whole program! 2009-03-14T16:54:36 and you don't want to get a core dump. 2009-03-14T16:54:48 although just a backtrace is much, much better! 2009-03-14T16:55:18 yep 2009-03-14T16:55:28 a long, long, looong backtrace that is utterly useless 2009-03-14T16:55:32 so much better thana core dump 2009-03-14T16:56:01 yeah. 2009-03-14T16:56:07 why would you want your program's state? 2009-03-14T16:56:13 that's just crazy talk. 2009-03-14T16:56:17 indeed 2009-03-14T16:56:27 after all you might even fix things 2009-03-14T16:56:27 ugh 2009-03-14T16:56:41 jyujin_: did you hear my tale of some girl in the CS center? 2009-03-14T16:56:59 "my program had a nullpointerexception... is it supposed to do that?" 2009-03-14T16:57:01 thedoctor: dont think so, do tell :D 2009-03-14T16:57:04 lol 2009-03-14T16:57:08 she litterally said just that. 2009-03-14T16:57:22 and it was me and this really elitist grad student in charge of the lab. 2009-03-14T16:57:35 which really, freshmen should not be allowed anywhere near us. 2009-03-14T16:58:05 surprisingly we didn't laugh/flame her into oblivion, although we did say "yes, it is supposed to do that" 2009-03-14T16:59:01 lol 2009-03-14T16:59:15 yeah i see how some freshmen can provoke irrational anger :D 2009-03-14T16:59:38 i was one too and constantly had to suppress the urge to kill my co-freshmen 2009-03-14T16:59:47 at least some of them 2009-03-14T16:59:51 the worst though are the ones that expect you to sit over their shoulder and help them with EVERY FUCKING LINE 2009-03-14T17:00:00 yeah exactly 2009-03-14T17:00:20 I will NOT! and even if I was stupid enough to do your work for you.... hey, that sounds like cheating... AND IT IS. 2009-03-14T17:00:45 we do have these 2-hour lab speed test/assignment/semi-exams every week the first year. i usually skipped as many as i could. i swear, two weeks before the semester's final exams, we had one girl there that literally asked "okay, i think i got it, so how do i save this?" 2009-03-14T17:00:52 *g* 2009-03-14T17:01:13 ha. 2009-03-14T17:01:27 someone tried to save in Emacs while they were in the middle of a search. 2009-03-14T17:01:27 i mean she mustve been doing this for at least 7 weeks before then 2009-03-14T17:01:31 you'd think she'd remember? 2009-03-14T17:01:34 ha 2009-03-14T17:01:44 hehe 2009-03-14T17:01:45 anyhow, the labbie (who uses emacs) couldn't get it to work 2009-03-14T17:01:51 I hate emacs, so I was like... 2009-03-14T17:02:05 no fair, we're forced to use "dr. scheme" in the lab thingies 2009-03-14T17:02:08 C-g C-g C-g C-g C-x C-s C-x C-c 2009-03-14T17:02:10 *g* 2009-03-14T17:02:13 and that worked. 2009-03-14T17:02:21 it sounds like someone choking to death! 2009-03-14T17:02:27 I kinda liked Dr Scheme. 2009-03-14T17:02:32 *gg* 2009-03-14T17:02:37 but I need my vim 2009-03-14T17:02:41 I can't even use Acme. 2009-03-14T17:02:46 thedoctor: its okay if the ocmputers are fast enough and youre not using a retarded language pack 2009-03-14T17:02:58 jyujin_: yeah, I hear you 2009-03-14T17:03:09 the computer were 600ish mhz freebsd 4.x machines 2009-03-14T17:03:12 latest drscheme 2009-03-14T17:03:19 ouch. 2009-03-14T17:03:21 and a teachpack that made the interpreter about 3x slower 2009-03-14T17:03:28 yeah, not enough computrons. 2009-03-14T17:03:33 yup 2009-03-14T17:03:51 it's funny how people say emacs is "modeless" though 2009-03-14T17:03:52 bullshit. 2009-03-14T17:04:00 and it's worse to get out of a mode in emacs than vim 2009-03-14T17:04:03 shit we had people with 1.5ghz / 512 meg laptops struggle with it. i know of one girl that abandoned gnome over the issue and used e17 to get enough ram to do the assignments 2009-03-14T17:04:06 ESC always wins. Always 2009-03-14T17:04:10 *g* 2009-03-14T17:04:11 yeah 2009-03-14T17:04:19 haha, a girl smart enough to use gnome? 2009-03-14T17:04:22 kind of what ESC's supposed to do 2009-03-14T17:04:28 errr s/gnome/e17 2009-03-14T17:04:31 is she single? 2009-03-14T17:04:34 thedoctor: yes, my girlfriend mind you 2009-03-14T17:04:34 ;D 2009-03-14T17:04:37 DAMN 2009-03-14T17:04:41 she converted to wmii in the mean time 2009-03-14T17:04:42 *g* 2009-03-14T17:04:53 damn wmii... it always breaks on me 2009-03-14T17:04:57 says shes too lazy to arrangew indows 2009-03-14T17:04:59 lol 2009-03-14T17:05:31 oh, yeah, I used ratpoison and wmii a little... 2009-03-14T17:05:43 but doing things like writing a tag in wmii's FS crashed it. 2009-03-14T17:05:49 I'm using awesome now. 2009-03-14T17:06:01 odd that, never crashed here 2009-03-14T17:06:02 literally 2009-03-14T17:06:04 ah wel 2009-03-14T17:06:04 :D 2009-03-14T17:06:23 awesome is nice. 2009-03-14T17:06:31 I have it looking like rio, have a nice status bar, 2009-03-14T17:06:40 and can switch between floating and tiling to my tastes. 2009-03-14T17:07:55 nice :) 2009-03-14T17:13:20 unfortunately, I'm not technically with an brilliant CS women. 2009-03-14T17:13:33 one is going to be a doctor (and she's really good at it) 2009-03-14T17:13:42 the other is CS, but has much to learn. 2009-03-14T17:15:22 lol, got two girls on the stack? 2009-03-14T17:15:57 more like... in the set? 2009-03-14T17:16:13 now that would sound like theyre sisters? 2009-03-14T17:16:17 no! 2009-03-14T17:16:19 no no no no 2009-03-14T17:16:24 ;) 2009-03-14T17:16:35 but a stack makes it sound like they're isolated 2009-03-14T17:16:56 ah :) 2009-03-14T17:17:27 now it doesnt sound as kinky as before, but still quite some ;) 2009-03-14T17:17:42 yeah, I guess :\ 2009-03-14T17:17:47 it's ... a long story. 2009-03-14T17:17:57 it's okay, i know the generla issue ;D 2009-03-14T17:18:05 :-P 2009-03-14T17:18:12 it's at least interesting! 2009-03-14T17:18:22 i know, similar issues here 2009-03-14T17:18:24 sort of 2009-03-14T17:18:36 well its been resolved now i think 2009-03-14T17:18:47 heh. 2009-03-14T17:18:57 that's the thing... it's not an issue I need to solve :-P 2009-03-14T17:19:27 thats even better then... and evn more kinky too 2009-03-14T17:19:27 ;) 2009-03-14T17:19:48 *ahem* 2009-03-14T17:19:58 so how bout the Packers, huh? 2009-03-14T17:20:04 doing pretty good this season... 2009-03-14T17:21:11 lol 2009-03-14T17:21:28 yeah totally, i hear they're packing quite the bunch ;D 2009-03-14T17:21:35 *ahem* 2009-03-14T17:21:40 :P 2009-03-14T17:22:06 :) 2009-03-14T17:22:40 hmmmkay, i think im gonna try to prep up kyuba's ipc for a release 2009-03-14T17:23:08 cool 2009-03-14T17:23:09 have fun 2009-03-14T17:23:10 give people something to play... init with 9p i/o 2009-03-14T17:23:13 mwahaha 2009-03-14T17:23:14 ;) 2009-03-14T17:23:19 yeah maybe 2009-03-14T17:23:20 heh 2009-03-14T17:23:21 im tired 2009-03-14T17:23:27 tired? 2009-03-14T17:23:27 so it probably wont work out today 2009-03-14T17:23:29 Oh man... 2009-03-14T17:23:33 that's a sign of a medical problem 2009-03-14T17:23:39 my doctor told me about it. 2009-03-14T17:23:47 it's called... "Caffeine Loss" 2009-03-14T17:23:50 but i cant play with the ps3 because the bluray's laser burned out 2009-03-14T17:23:56 whaaaat? 2009-03-14T17:24:03 basically, you'll need to drink lots of caffeine to get better. 2009-03-14T17:24:11 okay i'm gonna get a massive amount of pepsi max in stat 2009-03-14T17:24:14 :D 2009-03-14T17:24:20 good. 2009-03-14T17:24:26 make that double stat 2009-03-14T17:24:29 you don't want Caffeine Loss to get to stage 2 2009-03-14T17:24:35 stage 2 is this thing called "sleep" 2009-03-14T17:24:37 very bad. 2009-03-14T17:24:59 you go unconscious for hours, hallucinate vividly, then have amnesia about the whole thing! 2009-03-14T17:25:47 ewww, yeah it sounds like i had stage 2 a couple times lately 2009-03-14T17:25:48 *nod* 2009-03-14T17:25:50 need to fix this 2009-03-14T17:25:52 ;) 2009-03-14T17:26:16 well now the only other problem is this home improvement project of my neighbours', which seems to involve jackhammers 2009-03-14T17:26:19 wow, better do it quick! Stage 2 can get worse, where it happens to you EVERY DAY 2009-03-14T17:27:32 every day? but but 2009-03-14T17:27:34 this is horrible 2009-03-14T17:27:36 waaaaah 2009-03-14T17:27:36 :D 2009-03-14T17:27:40 heh. 2009-03-14T17:27:45 good thing those jackhammers seem to be feeding my adrenaline 2009-03-14T17:27:56 I wonder if this would make it on bash.org 2009-03-14T17:28:02 see, caffeine loss can be coped with by excessive amounts of adrenaline 2009-03-14T17:28:02 :D 2009-03-14T17:28:09 possibly 2009-03-14T17:28:09 ;) 2009-03-14T17:29:03 aw man, its been way too long since ive met people with a good sense of sarcasm and humour... other than aidan and some of the residents on #kyuba 2009-03-14T17:29:07 heh 2009-03-14T17:29:08 on irc that is 2009-03-14T17:29:19 yeah. 2009-03-14T17:29:19 btw, wheres anant 2009-03-14T17:29:27 wit seems to be a lost art 2009-03-14T17:29:33 he's on a trip 2009-03-14T17:29:34 yarr 2009-03-14T17:29:35 for like a week 2009-03-14T17:30:05 doh 2009-03-14T17:30:13 i was gonna ask if i could have glenda join #kyuba too 2009-03-14T17:30:18 totally forgot about bots 2009-03-14T17:30:21 seemed such a slick idea 2009-03-14T17:30:22 :) 2009-03-14T17:30:28 heh 2009-03-14T17:30:34 I suck at IRC :\ 2009-03-14T17:31:46 heh, me too mostly 2009-03-14T17:32:06 its kinda fun tho, considering its one of the oldest protocols for this still in heavy use 2009-03-14T17:32:13 wow. I just missed that the quote thing on qdb has an "untimestamp" option... and used awk. 2009-03-14T17:32:18 yeah 2009-03-14T17:32:21 aside from email. 2009-03-14T17:33:13 hehe 2009-03-14T17:33:18 yeah, except i cant stand email 2009-03-14T17:33:21 i dunno why even 2009-03-14T17:33:23 heh 2009-03-14T17:33:24 well cant help it 2009-03-14T17:33:27 not realime 2009-03-14T17:33:35 although, I like that aspect of it because Im 2009-03-14T17:33:39 im prolly gonna add an nntp option to this cms i had planned 2009-03-14T17:33:42 much better with words if I have time 2009-03-14T17:33:58 aye that, but i kinda prefer usenet for that 2009-03-14T17:34:01 although, to write a good email, I then require over an hour. 2009-03-14T17:34:05 just a bit hard to find a good server these days 2009-03-14T17:34:09 right. 2009-03-14T17:34:09 *nod* 2009-03-14T17:34:17 that's where mailing lists come in. 2009-03-14T17:34:23 i suppose 2009-03-14T17:34:24 basically a shadow of former glory 2009-03-14T17:34:31 but functional 2009-03-14T17:34:33 but i still prefer usenet over MLs 2009-03-14T17:34:40 a lot even 2009-03-14T17:34:54 i think im gonna write this usenet server one of these days for just that purpose :D 2009-03-14T17:35:30 heh 2009-03-14T17:35:31 nice 2009-03-14T17:35:38 yeah 2009-03-14T17:35:50 well, about the only mailing list software i could find lately was mailman 2009-03-14T17:35:53 and... i dont like that 2009-03-14T17:36:05 + if it were nntp, it'd come with a proper archive right away, for free 2009-03-14T17:36:33 jyujin_: yeah, nntp pretty much eliminates the overhead. 2009-03-14T17:36:41 yup 2009-03-14T17:36:44 whereas mailing lists you have to kludge all that together. 2009-03-14T17:36:57 aye, in stupid http-based archives and all 2009-03-14T17:37:06 http://qdb.us/295765 2009-03-14T17:37:06 then again, nntp servers are a bitch to set tup 2009-03-14T17:37:07 Title: QDB: Quote #295765 (at qdb.us) 2009-03-14T17:37:27 well, I'm sure the only people who ever used them were rather smart. 2009-03-14T17:37:32 so they will be a PITA :) 2009-03-14T17:37:49 the bash one has to be moderated. I hate bash.org... 2009-03-14T17:37:57 Glenda`: good girl 2009-03-14T17:37:58 jyujin_: Error: "good" is not a valid command. 2009-03-14T17:38:12 thedoctor: hehehe :D 2009-03-14T17:38:38 yeah i suppose they were, but come to think of it, almost ALL the good ol unix software programmes are a bitch to set up 2009-03-14T17:38:41 like 2009-03-14T17:38:43 say 2009-03-14T17:39:07 openldap or openvpn. or hell, sendmail 2009-03-14T17:40:55 yep 2009-03-14T17:46:47 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-14T17:46:49 *** thedocto1 has joined #glendix 2009-03-14T17:46:57 wow. 2009-03-14T17:47:05 so, I have to use ndiswrapper for wireless. 2009-03-14T17:47:15 and the card sometimes just magically turns on by itself. 2009-03-14T17:47:51 and I shut it off because if it doesn't have a valid connection, linux will still try to use it since it picks the latest-to-turn-on interface. 2009-03-14T17:48:31 and the card keeps the ip address because my roommate set the leases on his network to expire in years or something 2009-03-14T18:03:10 hmmm 2009-03-14T18:03:22 wasnt there something about route metrics to prevent this? 2009-03-14T18:03:30 I thought so. 2009-03-14T18:03:34 i think you could artificially increase the ethernet's priority... 2009-03-14T18:03:39 but apparently the defaults suck... 2009-03-14T18:03:40 lol 2009-03-14T18:03:44 aye 2009-03-14T18:03:50 I would think that ether would have infinity priority... 2009-03-14T18:04:04 actuallt, what I want is cisco IOS's way of doing things. 2009-03-14T18:04:13 you get a streamlined shell for each interface as you configure it. 2009-03-14T18:04:20 and loadbalancing is so fucking easy. 2009-03-14T18:04:50 hehe 2009-03-14T18:04:53 assign eth0 to be "the one", and it will use that unless it's down 2009-03-14T18:04:57 a lot of the networking things in linux are evil 2009-03-14T18:05:02 *nod* 2009-03-14T18:05:05 yeah, tell me about it. 2009-03-14T18:05:12 i could try to make it do that for kyuba... 2009-03-14T18:05:22 I have barely scratched the surface of plan9 networking unfortunately. 2009-03-14T18:05:37 the learning curve is high.. man pages are only help if you know what you're doing... 2009-03-14T18:05:54 heh yeah 2009-03-14T18:06:04 i had quite an issue wrapping my head around 9p form just the manpages 2009-03-14T18:06:10 heh 2009-03-14T18:06:19 well that and it did omit the magic numbers in the header 2009-03-14T18:06:26 haha 2009-03-14T19:10:46 jyujin_: still here? 2009-03-14T19:18:45 thedocto1: back again, whats up? 2009-03-14T19:20:02 have you tried getting bluetooth to work in gentoo? 2009-03-14T19:20:17 specifically, I'm having trouble getting my ketboard to reconnect after it sleeps 2009-03-14T19:22:15 hmm no sorry. shouldnt the connect button on the keyboard do that automatically? 2009-03-14T19:23:27 no :P 2009-03-14T19:23:31 anyhow, g2g 2009-03-14T19:24:24 heh laters 2009-03-14T19:24:26 and good luck ;D 2009-03-14T23:51:23 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-14T23:52:25 *** thedocto1 has quit IRC 2009-03-14T23:57:42 *** thedocto1 has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T00:08:45 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-15T00:14:30 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T01:00:05 so does anyone know when goog picks who gets to have people work for them? 2009-03-15T04:56:26 18th 2009-03-15T05:51:07 *** thedocto1 has quit IRC 2009-03-15T06:10:11 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T06:21:26 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T06:34:10 *** codo__ has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T06:35:12 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-15T06:47:55 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-15T07:17:17 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T07:29:11 *** codo__ has quit IRC 2009-03-15T07:52:43 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-15T07:56:58 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-15T07:57:08 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T10:46:00 *** Karurosu_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T11:02:32 *** Karurosu has quit IRC 2009-03-15T11:02:39 *** Karurosu_ is now known as Karurosu 2009-03-15T16:23:28 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T16:55:34 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-15T16:57:32 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T17:29:52 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-15T17:29:55 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T17:31:32 awfully quiet in here the past 2 days 2009-03-15T17:57:16 indeed 2009-03-15T17:57:26 well my internet connection has gotten... significantly... worse... 2009-03-15T17:58:35 heh. 2009-03-15T17:58:45 at least your wireless card doens't have a mind of it's own. 2009-03-15T17:59:06 they still haven't fixed my DNS... "we have to punt this to the networking team because we're too stupif" 2009-03-15T18:04:48 lol 2009-03-15T18:04:49 great 2009-03-15T18:04:53 love techies like that 2009-03-15T18:04:55 :D 2009-03-15T18:06:21 heh, well, he didn't exactly say that. 2009-03-15T18:06:28 but that's what he *should* have said 2009-03-15T18:07:07 hehehe 2009-03-15T18:16:47 ok, so here's a lesson in why you should "emerge world" more than once every 6 months: 2009-03-15T18:17:05 after resolving about 15 blockers and slot problems, I'm now emerge package 41 2009-03-15T18:17:07 of 298. 2009-03-15T18:17:32 hehe 2009-03-15T18:17:41 i dont usually update unless i need to for some programme 2009-03-15T18:17:48 I stopped because of that fucking com_err things. 2009-03-15T18:18:00 the big blocker they totally messed up in portage. 2009-03-15T18:18:23 actually i cant fully upgrade because these CUNTS/IDIOTS/MORONS/FUCKHEADS removed cryptoloop support from the latest util-linux ebuilds 2009-03-15T18:18:36 thats.... quite aggravating 2009-03-15T18:18:38 huh? 2009-03-15T18:18:54 and, fuck, btw, youre going to get the "vulgar" rating on the irc stats that I wanted :P 2009-03-15T18:19:28 fuck yes 2009-03-15T18:19:32 :D 2009-03-15T18:19:51 no either way, they use-flagged something als "old crypto", but that only includes aesloop 2009-03-15T18:20:14 *Picard double facepalm* 2009-03-15T18:20:26 so i cant upgrade util-linux,m because im actually using cryptoloop... because LUGS is somewhere between braindead and useless 2009-03-15T18:20:32 hehehe 2009-03-15T18:20:56 what if you just remove util-linux from the world file? 2009-03-15T18:21:02 or will dependency hell get you then? 2009-03-15T18:22:19 well its a dependency of something... 2009-03-15T18:22:26 i never actually emerged it myself 2009-03-15T18:22:33 awesome. 2009-03-15T18:22:38 yup 2009-03-15T18:22:45 sooo yeah 2009-03-15T18:22:54 sooner or later ill prolly have to add an overlay for this 2009-03-15T18:23:03 huzzah. 2009-03-15T18:23:12 whoever thought luks should be used instead of cryptoloop should be court-martialled stat 2009-03-15T18:23:24 gentoo needs more people interested in writing ebuilds. 2009-03-15T18:23:31 heheh 2009-03-15T18:23:35 yeah 2009-03-15T18:23:40 or wait! better yet! it should just be able to make an ebuild from something that uses autotools. 2009-03-15T18:24:07 oh shit :P 2009-03-15T18:24:23 i still think autotools should be... well... killed 2009-03-15T18:24:26 bah, can't do that. We'll have ubuntufags using gentoo! 2009-03-15T18:24:39 hehe 2009-03-15T18:24:39 yeah, mk is so much sweeter, but, what are you going to do. 2009-03-15T18:24:55 actually package selection of gentoo seems better... but oh welll 2009-03-15T18:25:02 yeah mk, or my icemake here 2009-03-15T18:25:06 yep 2009-03-15T18:25:06 depends on what youre up to 2009-03-15T18:25:22 but instead of making ebuilds convenient and automagic, they make it miserable 2009-03-15T18:25:31 then wonder why no one is a gentoo developer. 2009-03-15T18:25:32 well icemake is fairly limited in its use, obviously 2009-03-15T18:25:41 yeah 2009-03-15T18:26:12 well, if someone would have just thought of doing .x86 .mips .x64 sooner, autotools could gracefully die. 2009-03-15T18:26:32 and like... having a /bin/$ARCH 2009-03-15T18:26:49 honestly, we have that at RIT, because we have SPARC and x86 SUNs sharing an NFS root. 2009-03-15T18:27:07 and all it does is look at uname, then set $platform before doing anything.... 2009-03-15T18:27:23 lol nice 2009-03-15T18:27:36 cross compiling would be much less of a bitch, too. 2009-03-15T18:27:53 yeah so i see the general idea behind that "afsl" is both needed and not that unusual 2009-03-15T18:27:56 :) 2009-03-15T18:27:58 yep 2009-03-15T18:28:29 afsl ? 2009-03-15T18:28:44 thedoctor: that paper thingy on kyuba.org 2009-03-15T18:29:55 which I can't read atm because of your connectivity issues :P 2009-03-15T18:30:24 seriously? 2009-03-15T18:30:33 kyuba.org isnt hosted on my box 2009-03-15T18:30:34 ;) 2009-03-15T18:30:38 oh 2009-03-15T18:30:42 yeah, well, it is down 2009-03-15T18:30:51 kybua.org and glendix.org are on their own server... 2009-03-15T18:30:52 huh? 2009-03-15T18:30:54 holyshit 2009-03-15T18:31:00 oh that's not good. 2009-03-15T18:31:10 hm 2009-03-15T18:31:10 shit shit shit. 2009-03-15T18:31:13 no actually it seems online 2009-03-15T18:31:15 hm= 2009-03-15T18:31:16 ? 2009-03-15T18:31:27 wait, it is there? 2009-03-15T18:31:30 wtf... 2009-03-15T18:31:32 aye 2009-03-15T18:31:53 kyuba.org and glendix.org both seem to work 2009-03-15T18:32:18 WTF? I can't put it in my browser but I can follow the link from google? 2009-03-15T18:32:47 but I can't get to kyuba at all. 2009-03-15T18:32:59 eh? 2009-03-15T18:33:03 okay lets try a link then... 2009-03-15T18:33:09 http://kyuba.org/ 2009-03-15T18:33:11 Title: kyuba.org | "so small it makes a bit blush!" (at kyuba.org) 2009-03-15T18:33:23 yeah thats the one 2009-03-15T18:33:24 nada... 2009-03-15T18:33:35 link from google won't work either. 2009-03-15T18:33:38 thedoctor: Glenda` seems to be able to access it 2009-03-15T18:33:40 weird... 2009-03-15T18:33:45 but linking to glendix works 2009-03-15T18:33:49 this is definitely my end. 2009-03-15T18:33:51 heh 2009-03-15T18:33:57 probably RIT's ITS has herpes again. 2009-03-15T18:34:03 doubly weird, since glendix.org and kyuba.org are on the same server 2009-03-15T18:34:03 :) 2009-03-15T18:34:15 doubly not weird since ITS sucks. 2009-03-15T18:34:19 ah 2009-03-15T18:34:20 soooo incompetent. 2009-03-15T18:34:22 ;D 2009-03-15T18:34:30 seriously, > 4 days to fix a bad DNS entry. 2009-03-15T18:34:44 :D 2009-03-15T18:34:54 sounds like italian authorities 2009-03-15T18:35:01 :P 2009-03-15T18:35:08 ;D 2009-03-15T18:35:11 wait.. I thought you were in Germany 2009-03-15T18:35:38 i am, but i had to deal with the italian registry the other day cause someone asked me to get him a .it domain 2009-03-15T18:35:46 ah 2009-03-15T18:35:50 yeah, that would do it. 2009-03-15T18:35:57 it literally took them 6 weeks to accept the registry entry 2009-03-15T18:36:02 WOW. 2009-03-15T18:36:10 I really will kill someone at ITS if it takes that long. 2009-03-15T18:36:20 I have so much crap on that server that I need to get to. 2009-03-15T18:36:24 yeah three weeeks first time to notify me that the fax i sent them didnt have the country code on my place of birth 2009-03-15T18:36:29 then another three to accept the new fax 2009-03-15T18:36:31 NFS-mount for daily filesystem dumps from my laptop 2009-03-15T18:36:41 wow. 2009-03-15T18:36:46 that blows. 2009-03-15T18:36:52 heh 2009-03-15T18:36:55 indeed 2009-03-15T18:37:39 codo: did anyone answer your question about google groups? 2009-03-15T18:37:52 codo: I would recommend subscribing since we will be using it for official stuff soon. 2009-03-15T18:47:02 thedoctor: I haven't looked at the code base of glendix, but I really want to contribute. 2009-03-15T18:47:20 codo: do you have experience at Linux development? 2009-03-15T18:47:45 kernel development, I should say. 2009-03-15T18:47:50 thedoctor: well I haven't done serious projects. But I hope to be able to contribute to some good open source projects. 2009-03-15T18:48:10 thedoctor: I did kernel patching for a project in my undergraduate long time ago. 2009-03-15T18:48:27 thedoctor: I have joined the googlegroups btw. 2009-03-15T18:48:32 the biggest thing blocking us from getting the syscall and loader stuff into the kernel is a boot problem 2009-03-15T18:48:35 codo: cool 2009-03-15T18:49:06 the problem is that we can't set a syscall gate other than 0x80 after this patch came in that made x86 and x86_64 use the same code 2009-03-15T18:49:15 once we can get past that, we can get the glendix patches in 2009-03-15T18:49:33 the other thing (which Murmuria started on) is writing /net 2009-03-15T18:49:51 if you hg clone the glendix sources, you can see that 2009-03-15T18:49:54 thedoctor: do you people work anywhere ? 2009-03-15T18:50:00 other than doing open source projects ? 2009-03-15T18:50:09 I'm a student at the moment, between jobs 2009-03-15T18:50:34 you? 2009-03-15T18:50:53 thedoctor: I ceased to be student in Dec 2008. Will have to go for job soon. 2009-03-15T18:51:03 in industry? 2009-03-15T18:51:17 haven't found one so far here in the US. 2009-03-15T18:51:19 ;) 2009-03-15T18:51:47 whereabouts are you? 2009-03-15T18:51:52 I see from your /whois you are from RIT ? 2009-03-15T18:51:56 I went to UF, here. 2009-03-15T18:51:56 yep 2009-03-15T18:52:12 where in the US are you now? 2009-03-15T18:52:21 so RIT has got this famous affilation for deaf hearing impaired children isn't it ? 2009-03-15T18:52:29 gainesville, FL. 2009-03-15T18:52:40 yes, we have NTID, which is the largest technical institute for the deaf in the us 2009-03-15T18:52:50 * codo is a hearing impaired ;) 2009-03-15T18:52:51 ah, if you were in Mass, I could probably get you a job 2009-03-15T18:53:06 thedoctor: well I can relocate is that going to be a problem ? 2009-03-15T18:53:16 thedoctor: and is it only *US Citizen* job ? :) 2009-03-15T18:53:25 might be. I'm not really sure. 2009-03-15T18:53:39 I'd have to know more about your situation and see your resume 2009-03-15T18:53:51 my former employer is hiring, but it might only be for temporary positions. 2009-03-15T18:53:55 thedoctor: Ok private msg :P ? 2009-03-15T18:53:58 sure 2009-03-15T19:02:01 heh blimey 2009-03-15T19:02:10 blimey what? 2009-03-15T19:04:59 well, im always looking for jobs but lately around here the market is looking a bit sinister 2009-03-15T19:05:06 yeah 2009-03-15T19:05:07 then aain my current job is nice enough 2009-03-15T19:05:08 ;D 2009-03-15T19:05:11 no one wants full time employees 2009-03-15T19:06:52 thats the big problem 2009-03-15T19:07:00 the big hurdle is when you are from across the border :) 2009-03-15T19:07:13 of course I could go back to India and work there. 2009-03-15T19:07:21 heh 2009-03-15T19:07:23 But I've got this education loans to clear of 2009-03-15T19:07:30 before heading back my home. 2009-03-15T19:07:42 thedoctor: well my boss doesnt mind that, im just having trouble finding part-time employment with a really awesome profit margin :D 2009-03-15T19:07:52 heh 2009-03-15T19:07:52 yeah 2009-03-15T19:08:09 so does any other guys know any company who would hire people ? 2009-03-15T19:08:18 with no american citizen status ? 2009-03-15T19:08:28 please let me know. I'd be interested to apply. 2009-03-15T19:08:31 jyujin_: you want to have a full time and a part time? 2009-03-15T19:08:45 codo: well im from germany, so im afraid youd be outta luck :) 2009-03-15T19:09:07 thedoctor: more like just a part time that earns enough to pay for the university fees and the flat 2009-03-15T19:09:43 ah, sick of the daily grind? 2009-03-15T19:10:32 hehe yeah 2009-03-15T19:10:52 high paying part time is impossible to find :P 2009-03-15T19:11:06 and part time in the software industry... well, I've never seen it. 2009-03-15T19:11:13 work from home, sure, but not part time 2009-03-15T19:11:30 well i do have a part time job that pays enough for the rent, and i can work full time in the holidays, which then covers health insurance and the university fees 2009-03-15T19:11:33 but 2009-03-15T19:11:35 just barely 2009-03-15T19:11:45 i just wish i could opt out of this health insurance 2009-03-15T19:11:46 meh 2009-03-15T19:13:50 I get mine through RIT. 2009-03-15T19:13:54 the only nice thing they do 2009-03-15T19:25:29 hehe 2009-03-15T19:25:32 that IS nice 2009-03-15T19:26:00 well we do have university jobs, but for students, those pay even worse 2009-03-15T19:26:25 id usually get 400 euros from them, and since that is more than 330, id have to pay 60 euros for health insurance anyway 2009-03-15T19:26:39 (well 67 now, the fee is fixed for students) 2009-03-15T19:26:46 now my current job earns me 640 euros 2009-03-15T19:26:55 sans the same 67 for health insurance 2009-03-15T19:27:04 and another 340 for the rent... 2009-03-15T19:27:09 60 for electricity... 2009-03-15T19:27:14 yeah, working for the institute here sucks, too 2009-03-15T19:27:31 though being a lab instructor is the best-paying job on campus ;) 2009-03-15T19:27:41 well okay i admit that usually im not actually paying the health insurance during the year, during semester breaks when i work full time 2009-03-15T19:27:48 hehe 2009-03-15T19:28:12 right, employers force you to have health insurance. 2009-03-15T19:28:20 does your Uni do work-study or co-ops? 2009-03-15T19:28:27 thedoctor: no, in germany the state forces you to 2009-03-15T19:28:53 jyujin_: yeah, actually, that's what it is in the US, the state forces it on the companies, who force it on you as a requirement 2009-03-15T19:28:55 and that meanst aht, if i dont pay the health insurance in time, i get expelled from the university 2009-03-15T19:29:08 ouch 2009-03-15T19:29:17 heh 2009-03-15T19:29:24 well the employers dont really care... 2009-03-15T19:29:38 unless you work for the state 2009-03-15T19:29:38 heh 2009-03-15T19:29:56 prolly since youre forced to have insurance anyway 2009-03-15T19:29:56 meh 2009-03-15T19:31:31 oh, actually that is different. 2009-03-15T19:31:40 here they have to fire you if you don't get it. 2009-03-15T19:32:18 wow... 2009-03-15T19:32:25 pretty much 2009-03-15T19:32:34 that probably depends on which state youre in then? 2009-03-15T19:32:46 pretty sure i know some kids from the US that dont have health insurance... 2009-03-15T19:32:53 then again i dont know if they have jobs... 2009-03-15T19:33:14 well, basically, everyone in .de is forced to have health insurance, whether they have jobs or not 2009-03-15T19:33:23 it varies state to state, 2009-03-15T19:33:33 but most of the states where people like us would get jobs have to have it. 2009-03-15T19:33:40 I think NY might actually be an exception. 2009-03-15T19:33:43 I know Mass has to 2009-03-15T19:34:09 heh 2009-03-15T19:34:55 actually its probably a good thing... its just that... well... i dunno, it *really* nags on my income and drives me near the i-have-no-money-for-food threshold 2009-03-15T19:51:27 feh, insurance is a ripoff. 2009-03-15T19:51:31 it goes like this... 2009-03-15T19:52:16 you bet the insurance company that something terrible will happen to you... you get sick, hit by a car, robbed, get in an accident, fire, hospitalized, windshield gets smashed in, whatever. 2009-03-15T19:52:32 you bet the insurance company all that will happen, and you pay every month into that bet. 2009-03-15T19:52:55 the company (at no up-front cost) bets that *none* of that will happen. 2009-03-15T19:53:04 And you hope the insurance company wins the bet. 2009-03-15T19:53:07 See the problem? 2009-03-15T20:05:39 *gg* 2009-03-15T20:06:01 thedoctor: *that* is definitely bash.org worthy 2009-03-15T20:06:07 and so true 2009-03-15T20:06:10 haha 2009-03-15T20:10:57 ugh.. emerge 88 of 216. 2009-03-15T20:11:15 it spent like half an hour on clisp for all the stupid lisp code. 2009-03-15T20:11:19 I've run clisp once. 2009-03-15T20:21:05 hehe 2009-03-15T20:21:16 yeah its a shame most lisp implementations are... well... bitches 2009-03-15T20:21:23 the concept would otherwise be so friggen neat 2009-03-15T20:25:24 well, the big thing I see is the memory usage. 2009-03-15T20:25:42 I mean, you can get around that if you're ATT and need to have reliable "runs forever" packet switching. 2009-03-15T20:25:55 sure, having a C program that can't recover there is bad and you /have/ to lose the memory. 2009-03-15T20:26:03 err... sacrifice the memory. 2009-03-15T20:26:48 but I'd rather not have GC kick in while I'm playing an FPS 2009-03-15T20:27:13 FPS ? 2009-03-15T20:27:23 First Person Shooter game 2009-03-15T20:27:48 ah, interesting. 2009-03-15T20:27:56 yeah, a bad habit of mine. 2009-03-15T20:28:04 that and watching tons of star trek, house, and firefly. 2009-03-15T20:28:18 at least I don't watch commercials. I don't have tv. 2009-03-15T20:28:44 * codo hasn't watched star trek. Will watch once I get subtitles. 2009-03-15T20:28:55 * codo watched good will hunting. 2009-03-15T20:29:02 cool film. 2009-03-15T20:29:15 last thing I watched was Slumdog Millionaire. 2009-03-15T20:29:18 do you folks find how I met your mother, office funny ? 2009-03-15T20:29:23 thedoctor: thats a sucky movie. 2009-03-15T20:29:28 heh. 2009-03-15T20:29:43 the plot is nice, but I'm sure it's portrayal of india is ridiculous. 2009-03-15T20:29:45 tells the myths of western guys towards India. 2009-03-15T20:30:02 codo: I can tell when films are over the top. 2009-03-15T20:30:12 yeah I'm afraid that film makers will now exploit the darker underbelly of India for their gains. 2009-03-15T20:30:13 but there are plenty of movies like that about NYC for example. 2009-03-15T20:30:19 like ? 2009-03-15T20:30:25 showing how evil and sinful and dangerous NYC is. 2009-03-15T20:30:31 meh, gang movies and stuff like that. 2009-03-15T20:30:31 I bet they wouldn't win oscar 2009-03-15T20:30:32 ;) 2009-03-15T20:30:34 ones I don't watch. 2009-03-15T20:30:43 actually, I guess 8 mile is an example. 2009-03-15T20:30:47 and it won some awarf. 2009-03-15T20:30:50 * codo hasn't watched. 2009-03-15T20:30:55 neither have I :P 2009-03-15T20:31:04 I need to watch the reader. 2009-03-15T20:31:12 and I have avoided benjamin button 2009-03-15T20:31:47 ha, yeah, I heard that movie was a waste. 2009-03-15T20:32:04 codo: watch "The Man From Elysian Fields" 2009-03-15T20:32:17 it's a very moving film, despite oddities of the plot 2009-03-15T20:32:55 Ok, thanks, feel free to throw some interesting plots. 2009-03-15T20:33:01 I did watch the kite runner, and found it nice movie. 2009-03-15T20:46:47 thedoctor: there ? 2009-03-15T20:47:10 what is exact command to pull the code for http://kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/gregkh/patches 2009-03-15T20:48:32 thedoctor: never mind, I figured it out :) 2009-03-15T20:48:43 the git downloading has started. 2009-03-15T21:01:55 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-15T21:03:10 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T21:03:16 holy crap 2009-03-15T21:03:18 linux's 9P SUCKS 2009-03-15T21:03:35 I just catted a file and it ran aaway on me, used all my CPU, and I had to poweroff my computer! 2009-03-15T21:06:47 what is 9p ? 2009-03-15T21:07:01 plan 9's resource-sharing protocol 2009-03-15T21:07:10 ah, I see. 2009-03-15T21:07:24 anyways me downloding the linux-next 2009-03-15T21:07:27 for the source code 2009-03-15T21:07:55 it seems it is eating space easily. 2009-03-15T21:08:56 should be a couple gigabytes, I think 2009-03-15T21:10:55 I see you are logged in from an RIT machine :O ? 2009-03-15T21:11:01 yeah. 2009-03-15T21:11:05 I live here. 2009-03-15T21:13:31 codo: http://9p.cat-v.org 2009-03-15T21:13:32 Title: 9P The Simple Distributed File System from Bell Labs (at 9p.cat-v.org) 2009-03-15T21:15:39 this is a bot :O ? 2009-03-15T21:16:05 ah supybot Glenda` :) 2009-03-15T21:16:34 Glenda`: http:google.com 2009-03-15T21:16:34 codo: Error: "http:google.com" is not a valid command. 2009-03-15T21:16:40 Glenda`: http://google.com 2009-03-15T21:16:40 codo: Error: "http://google.com" is not a valid command. 2009-03-15T21:49:25 hey, go figure, portmap and that thing called DNS don't get along... 2009-03-15T21:49:32 I hate NFS. 2009-03-15T21:52:35 yep 2009-03-15T21:52:58 nfs and portmap are evil abominations :D 2009-03-15T21:56:27 it's funny, a guy at work got in a flamewar with Linus about how the kernel-mode part of NFS in linux didn't have a bug that he relied on 2009-03-15T21:56:38 Linus said it's a security hole, and to shut the fuck up. 2009-03-15T21:56:55 and the guy still complains about it. 2009-03-15T22:05:15 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-15T22:10:21 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-15T22:43:03 thedoctor: that requires some serious cojones 2009-03-15T22:43:04 :D 2009-03-15T22:43:49 not really 2009-03-15T22:44:34 well the getting-in-a-flamewar thing sure does need some 2009-03-15T22:45:01 i mean really now, you cant really argue about requiring some apparently security-critical bug ;D 2009-03-15T22:45:04 in kernel space 2009-03-15T22:48:00 eh, it's fun to flame with Linux 2009-03-15T22:48:03 Linus* 2009-03-15T22:49:17 heh, that is true 2009-03-15T22:49:21 its easy as well 2009-03-15T23:11:17 well, he's very often wrong, and he knows that. 2009-03-15T23:11:38 I do have to admit flaming over something that was a bug and secutiry hole is stupid, though. 2009-03-15T23:11:48 but the guy was from MIT, so you'd expect it. 2009-03-15T23:21:03 :D 2009-03-15T23:27:49 * uriel incited the trolling of linus into 9fans 2009-03-15T23:28:14 heh. here's my impression of Linus: 2009-03-15T23:28:33 I'M RIGHT! YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE STUPID AND FAT AND UGLY AND I HATE YOU AND I HOPE YOU GET HIT BY A BUS. 2009-03-15T23:28:46 but linus, you were actually wrong. 2009-03-15T23:29:01 WELL NATURALLY, THESE THINGS HAPPEN AND YOU HAVE TO BE AN ADULT ABOUT IT. 2009-03-15T23:29:52 I don't agree with him on many things, but aside from Al, I think Linus is one of the most sane kernel hackers around 2009-03-15T23:30:08 (Al is well ahead of the pack) 2009-03-15T23:30:22 Linus is fine, just don't let him talk. 2009-03-15T23:30:36 he needs to be locked in his basement and do code. Which thankfully is the way it is. 2009-03-15T23:33:50 heh 2009-03-15T23:34:29 nah, he is good at putting people in their place 2009-03-15T23:34:50 (viro is even better at that... sadly few pay enough attention to him) 2009-03-15T23:35:29 morton seems to be a bit saner than Linus when it comes to telling it like it is. 2009-03-15T23:36:03 I really don't understand why everything on LKML has to be a flame. That's probably why he doesn't post much. 2009-03-15T23:37:06 LKML is rather civilized compared to 9fans... (specially to how it used to be back in the good ol days) 2009-03-15T23:37:41 there is nothing like a one line put down by Rob 2009-03-15T23:38:05 I'm glad the one time Rob responded to something I said it wasn't really negative 2009-03-15T23:38:17 it was pretty much just a "more than one way to do things" post. 2009-03-15T23:38:36 he has mellowed down a lot 2009-03-15T23:38:55 age does that to you. 2009-03-15T23:39:23 boyd used to be great too, any time somebody would mention something stupid he would reach for his heavy weapons 2009-03-15T23:39:32 heh. 2009-03-15T23:39:42 oh my god, I was at a plan9 talk by John Floren 2009-03-15T23:39:54 and they did it at SSE, who are a bunch of Java and Windoze wankers. 2009-03-15T23:40:18 and someone said "So what does plan 9 offer to someone who's used to a nice UI" 2009-03-15T23:40:31 I wanted to jump across the table and rip open his jugular. 2009-03-15T23:40:45 heh 2009-03-15T23:41:01 imagine how it would feel after you have had to deal with that a hundred times :) 2009-03-15T23:41:05 (or more) 2009-03-15T23:41:25 oh, I get nasty looks because I run gentoo on my laptop, which is a macbook pro 2009-03-15T23:41:32 hah 2009-03-15T23:41:43 and I'm always using some bare-bones wm 2009-03-15T23:41:53 and firefox has no buttons. 2009-03-15T23:42:01 heh, familiar those looks are 2009-03-15T23:42:16 people are like "how could you do that to such a sacred device?!?! HERETIC!!!" 2009-03-15T23:42:27 yarr 2009-03-15T23:42:33 I get that almost weekly. Even /Linux/ users give me nasty looks. 2009-03-15T23:42:39 had similar issues when i was doing that on my ibook 2009-03-15T23:42:41 because it's not Gnome or KDE... 2009-03-15T23:42:45 yep 2009-03-15T23:42:53 pieces of trash. 2009-03-15T23:43:00 gets even worse when you tell them you cant stand mice... 2009-03-15T23:43:02 I railed the KDE people more than once for being idiots. 2009-03-15T23:43:08 heh... I call them rats. 2009-03-15T23:43:10 hehe 2009-03-15T23:43:14 yarr 2009-03-15T23:43:20 glad i found a good trackball the other day 2009-03-15T23:43:28 still doesnt help on the laptop though 2009-03-15T23:43:28 although I've come over, Rob has convinced me that rats are ok, for some things. 2009-03-15T23:43:31 i *hat* touchpads 2009-03-15T23:43:40 heh 2009-03-15T23:43:56 I just really think that acme would benefit from commands like w, p, E, b 2009-03-15T23:44:43 heh 2009-03-15T23:45:58 I mean, I get where Rob was coming from. Not being able to take a pointer and say "here" is bad. 2009-03-15T23:46:05 but I think he threw out the baby with the bathwater. 2009-03-15T23:46:42 it's equally annoying to have to stop what I'm doing and pick up the pointer and move it around instead of saying "now move ahead 4 words at the end of the word" 2009-03-15T23:46:54 heh indeed 2009-03-16T00:00:35 KDE though has it's flaws has drive the appeal of Linux more than anyone else 2009-03-16T00:00:53 people find linux to be usable like MSFT windoze thanks to KDE increasingly these days. 2009-03-16T00:01:15 and that's fine, but KDE is really A) poorly designed and B) poorly managed 2009-03-16T00:01:23 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-16T00:01:27 yeah thats the problem. 2009-03-16T00:01:55 Only if someone out there would listen to flaws, I think it would be could. 2009-03-16T00:01:59 But people are selfish :( 2009-03-16T00:02:12 no, people are stupid. and liars. 2009-03-16T00:02:22 like Aaron Seigo and Peter Penz. 2009-03-16T00:02:48 seriously, adding tabs to the file manager was a 50 line patch. The code had been /done by someone else/ and they still hemmed and hawed over it. 2009-03-16T00:02:52 until I bitched them out. 2009-03-16T00:02:57 quite much so, but it looks like kde is still doing better than gnome... 2009-03-16T00:03:33 not really. 2009-03-16T00:03:43 people are bailing out of KDE and (unfortunately) going to Gnome. 2009-03-16T00:03:53 heh 2009-03-16T00:04:07 that maybe, but gnome is still hideous as a DE 2009-03-16T00:04:17 they fucked up the release so bad... honestly, it's just /starting/ to get stable and usable now. 2009-03-16T00:04:23 4.0 was January LAST YEAR 2009-03-16T00:04:33 that's a year of "it's done" 2009-03-16T00:04:37 and it's... not! 2009-03-16T00:04:51 heh yeah well they did say they only released it because they were pressured to do so and it wasnt intended for actual users 2009-03-16T00:04:55 :s 2009-03-16T00:05:13 they were not "pressured" 2009-03-16T00:05:22 and that doesn't matter who they intended it for. 2009-03-16T00:05:34 they should have just come clean and said, "We need another year" 2009-03-16T00:05:37 *shrug* dunno, seemed alright for devs 2009-03-16T00:05:37 or 6 months. 2009-03-16T00:05:42 no, it was shit. 2009-03-16T00:05:43 I used it. 2009-03-16T00:05:51 yeah i know, it sucked 2009-03-16T00:05:52 it was utter trash. It was not a .0 release. 2009-03-16T00:06:03 4.0 should have been beta 1. 2009-03-16T00:06:12 4.1 could be beta 2 2009-03-16T00:06:15 yeah that wouldve been better :D 2009-03-16T00:06:20 that would put us at rc 1 right now. 2009-03-16T00:06:27 and 4.2 *is* rc quality. 2009-03-16T00:06:41 no new real features, stability fixes. 2009-03-16T00:06:46 plus, who picked the default theme? 2009-03-16T00:06:49 it's hideous! 2009-03-16T00:06:56 *g* yeah 2009-03-16T00:07:02 Aya was perfect. Now you have a theme that doesn't match the windows. 2009-03-16T00:07:08 it contrasts so terribly. 2009-03-16T00:08:08 well quite frankly i think so far the only acceptable default themeing with any kde was with kde 2 2009-03-16T00:08:16 and that was only *sorta* acceptable 2009-03-16T00:08:24 yeah, KDE 3 was pretty ugly. 2009-03-16T00:08:28 too cartoony. 2009-03-16T00:08:31 and so is Gnome. 2009-03-16T00:08:33 yeah, keramik was ugly as sin 2009-03-16T00:08:35 yup 2009-03-16T00:08:37 it looks like windows 95. 2009-03-16T00:08:42 and it's disorganized as hell. 2009-03-16T00:09:00 yep 2009-03-16T00:09:00 a bunch of barely-related projects using the same ugly, shitty library cobbled together. 2009-03-16T00:09:28 like gnome office? what the hell is that? 2009-03-16T00:09:31 abiword? 2009-03-16T00:09:44 not that I think word processors are useful *at all* 2009-03-16T00:09:46 gnome has an office suite? :D 2009-03-16T00:09:54 yeah 2009-03-16T00:10:10 only useful app in an office suite is the spreadsheet programme, and usually even that isnt all that useful 2009-03-16T00:10:15 LaTeX is as close to perfect as it gets. 2009-03-16T00:10:41 i would agree 2009-03-16T00:10:52 well people do seem to have been trained to think its hard to use 2009-03-16T00:11:05 roff is ok, but a bit of a bitch to you 2009-03-16T00:11:07 use* 2009-03-16T00:11:35 yer, i think generally latex is better than roff 2009-03-16T00:11:54 TeX was written by Knuth, he generally knows what he's doing 2009-03-16T00:12:18 heh 2009-03-16T00:12:57 LaTeX has some little problems though. 2009-03-16T00:13:10 like lists not nesting past 4 things. 2009-03-16T00:13:31 and the tracking algorithms not taking overall chapter lengths into consideration. 2009-03-16T00:14:15 although, people probably only took one page at a time into consideration when tracking. But I think if LaTeX would look at whole sections/chapters it would have better typography settings than a person 2009-03-16T00:15:49 heh, i wouldnt know 2009-03-16T00:16:02 LaTeX turned me into a typography snob. 2009-03-16T00:16:22 well quite frankly latex has just about the best results ive seen so far wrt. typesetting 2009-03-16T00:16:27 so, that ones understandable :D 2009-03-16T00:17:11 meh 2009-03-16T00:17:16 i should get some sleep 2009-03-16T00:19:10 I guess Zapf forked LaTeX for something while he was at RIT. 2009-03-16T00:19:14 but idr. 2009-03-16T00:19:30 hm? 2009-03-16T00:19:36 Hermann Zapf 2009-03-16T00:19:42 famous typographer. 2009-03-16T00:19:44 Made Palatino 2009-03-16T00:19:48 ah 2009-03-16T00:19:55 ...and Optima, and Zapfino 2009-03-16T00:21:25 heh, totally need sleep :D 2009-03-16T00:21:42 no! you need to fix your caffeine deprivation problem! 2009-03-16T00:22:47 heh wish i could.... 2009-03-16T00:23:05 well, besides, i'll have to think about how to get a visa with ~60 usd on it stat 2009-03-16T00:23:12 else i might eb in quite some trouble 2009-03-16T00:23:25 heh 2009-03-16T00:23:32 go panhandling. 2009-03-16T00:23:36 then go to a coinstar 2009-03-16T00:23:38 stat as in, in under ~36 hours 2009-03-16T00:23:41 then deposit the money in an ATM 2009-03-16T00:23:55 hey, I knew bums in DC that would make 150 dollars panhandling in a day. 2009-03-16T00:24:04 you have to look the part, though. 2009-03-16T00:24:05 lol 2009-03-16T00:24:16 yeah but then its still not on a credit card account, only on a debit account :P 2009-03-16T00:24:21 i have it in my wallet in cash, too 2009-03-16T00:24:25 quite agrgavating 2009-03-16T00:24:27 oh, that blows. 2009-03-16T00:24:35 yep 2009-03-16T00:24:36 well, wait, do you have a debit card at all? 2009-03-16T00:24:41 you can wire transfer it. 2009-03-16T00:24:53 i can transfer things with papyal too... 2009-03-16T00:24:59 well 2009-03-16T00:25:06 i bought somethign somewhere with my visa 2009-03-16T00:25:14 and my bank rejected the payment 2009-03-16T00:25:20 and the store only accepts visa and mastercard 2009-03-16T00:25:31 wow. 2009-03-16T00:25:33 fail. 2009-03-16T00:25:46 wire transfers take a day or so, and i dunno how fast my bank is with their updates 2009-03-16T00:25:50 yer 2009-03-16T00:26:06 so, shit sucks 2009-03-16T00:26:09 actually, if the wire transfer is received, you can fight the bank over it. 2009-03-16T00:26:24 like, I overdrew an account even though I had a check deposited. 2009-03-16T00:26:27 I bitched them out. 2009-03-16T00:26:40 heh probably, that doesnt necessarily help me with the situation though 2009-03-16T00:26:51 the store will try another cc transfer in roughly 36 hours from now 2009-03-16T00:29:24 ah well, prolly gonna have to ask a friend for his cc over this and just give im the money through paypal or something 2009-03-16T00:29:28 meh :s 2009-03-16T00:29:52 still blows 2009-03-16T00:30:18 yeah. 2009-03-16T00:31:23 wish i could just ask the girlfriend, but she doesnt have a visa or mc :D 2009-03-16T00:31:42 hate stores like that 2009-03-16T00:32:12 what did you need to buy that badly? 2009-03-16T00:33:30 its a replacement laser diode for the ps3. i didnt need to buy it that badly, i just assumed the cc had enough budget left for the transaction, especially since the card was cleared when i did the transaction 2009-03-16T00:34:43 youd think theyd actually get the banks clearance before clearing the transaction... 2009-03-16T00:38:21 *** anothy_x has left #glendix 2009-03-16T00:48:42 HA 2009-03-16T00:49:49 hm? 2009-03-16T00:50:16 bank? something sane? 2009-03-16T00:50:18 what? 2009-03-16T00:50:25 right, there is that 2009-03-16T00:50:27 it still blows though 2009-03-16T00:50:35 im just 30 USD short on the visa 2009-03-16T00:50:38 well actually 2009-03-16T00:50:50 im only 5 USD short and the actual requested amount was 30 USD 2009-03-16T00:50:50 :s 2009-03-16T01:23:09 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T01:36:44 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-16T01:46:29 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-16T01:59:01 thedoctor: i have the entire linux-next code base 2009-03-16T01:59:07 where exactly I need to look ? 2009-03-16T02:06:25 codo: drivers/staging 2009-03-16T02:06:31 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T02:07:06 when you make menuconfig, make sure you go in and enable device drivers -> staging, disable "exclude staging drivers from being built", and then activate everything in staging 2009-03-16T02:07:21 there are some build warnings now, fixing those up will be a boon 2009-03-16T02:07:51 but in drivers/staging, almost every subdirectory has a TODO or README file with tasks that need to be accomplished. 2009-03-16T02:08:18 Many mention "checkpatch.pl" cleanups. Checkpatch is in the scripts directory in the source tree. 2009-03-16T02:15:39 ok this means I need to compile the kernel 2009-03-16T02:16:06 and have different partition devoted to compile this kernel codebase 2009-03-16T02:16:36 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-16T02:16:37 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-16T02:20:03 you'll find that generally, using an emulator like qemu will be quite much worth it for small changes... well thats provided the kernel code youre hacking on doesnt require special hardware... 2009-03-16T02:20:28 anyway, im off to bed 2009-03-16T02:21:43 * uriel preferes lguest to quemu 2009-03-16T02:21:50 lguest is surprisingly nice actually 2009-03-16T02:35:47 *** elgi has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T02:36:06 *** olegfink has quit IRC 2009-03-16T02:46:39 codo: most of the stuff for staging you don't even need to compile-test 2009-03-16T02:46:56 build test is good if you do something like checkpatch.pl that doesn't change real code. 2009-03-16T02:54:34 thedoctor: btw, did the /dev/time thing make it to greg's tree? 2009-03-16T03:06:04 uriel: no 2009-03-16T03:06:32 it's still getting bandied about the mailing list. Greg seems to be off lately, so it might not get picked up for a while 2009-03-16T03:06:56 there were some minor issues with it, like people not wanting HZ and jiffies exported. 2009-03-16T03:17:53 thedoctor: for now I think I have the source code in place, and I can look what files greg modified by having a look at the patches files. 2009-03-16T03:17:56 isnt it ? 2009-03-16T03:18:01 or is there something I need to do furhter. 2009-03-16T03:18:01 ? 2009-03-16T03:18:15 s/furhter/further ? 2009-03-16T03:18:23 yeah, the patches will show youeverything that greg has brought in. 2009-03-16T03:18:28 most are from other people. 2009-03-16T03:18:38 so for now I can analyze like this way right ? 2009-03-16T03:18:47 to solidify my understanding of what is happening ? 2009-03-16T03:18:49 but if you do 'git log filename' or 'git diff filename', that will also show you 2009-03-16T03:18:55 oh yeah. 2009-03-16T03:18:57 either way will work. 2009-03-16T03:19:00 * codo is liking git so far. 2009-03-16T03:19:13 git's pretty nice. 2009-03-16T03:19:27 you have to be a nutcase to understand it, but it is nice. 2009-03-16T03:19:50 thedoctor: once I tried understanding the linux source code but it was full of references to some other places. I wonder if doxygen reference for understanding kernel source code is there. 2009-03-16T03:20:05 tracking what points to where and keeping track of data structures is an overkill. 2009-03-16T03:22:20 thedoctor: I see, thanks for the update 2009-03-16T03:25:12 codo: there's way too much abstraction in the kernel. 2009-03-16T03:25:30 but I guess that's just what happens when five thousand people work on one thing. 2009-03-16T03:25:49 the APIs for drivers and filesystems are getting pretty nice, now, though 2009-03-16T03:26:02 multithreading is also a cinch. 2009-03-16T03:26:33 for API references, you might pick up some books, but there's also lxr on line, and there are some really incomplete doxy-type things on the web 2009-03-16T03:26:44 you can also run 'make ctags' and/or 'make cscope 2009-03-16T03:27:00 ' and you can then use cscope to browse/cross reference things 2009-03-16T03:27:42 uriel: yeah, I don't know if anyone will pick it up other than Greg, but he kind of disappeared. He does that. Also, noted that there are already a few patches for p9auth :) 2009-03-16T03:50:09 well, no hurry, good to see at least it is in the queue somewhere.. 2009-03-16T03:50:15 yep 2009-03-16T03:50:32 just trying to keep track and make sure it doesn't get lost along the way.. 2009-03-16T03:51:06 I'm on the CC list for both of Chris's posts, I'll get anything new that comes in. 2009-03-16T03:51:36 Right now he's working on changing a couple things I mentioned... like how the plan 9 kernel source seems to indicate that each field is 21 bytes, etc etc 2009-03-16T03:52:28 hmmm... no posts in the glendix list... wasn't somebody going to cc some stuff there? 2009-03-16T03:53:01 I thought Anant was going to email gcosta about the boot bug. 2009-03-16T03:53:04 thedoctor: 'each field'? what field? 2009-03-16T03:53:09 but I never got an email, so I guess anant never sent it. 2009-03-16T03:53:17 uriel: cat /dev/time returns 4 numberts. 2009-03-16T03:53:36 ah, that, cool 2009-03-16T03:53:52 the printf string is something like "%*x %*y" blah blah blah, where the field specifiers are all 21. 2009-03-16T03:54:09 field width specifiers, I should say. 2009-03-16T03:54:16 i see 2009-03-16T03:54:43 I just wanted to make sure Chris has something that's close to what plan 9 has. I guess the last two fields are implementation-defined, so we're trying to figure out what's a sane thing to have. 2009-03-16T03:54:57 I think he's going to do nanoseconds since boot and nanoseconds/second or something. 2009-03-16T03:56:33 /dev/time is part of devcons, you might want to structure things so later on it is easy to add other bits of devcons 2009-03-16T03:56:54 I was thinking it could be some kind of superdevice that adds in the other files. 2009-03-16T03:57:03 (also that might make it easier to get those patches in, as they will just be patches on an already existing component rather than new independent components) 2009-03-16T03:57:23 yeah, I'm not sure how well that will work with the existing driver model 2009-03-16T03:58:11 and also I don't know if actually making cons will work properly. There's already /dev/console, but I doubt it does anything magical to check which process is looking 2009-03-16T03:58:26 again, it could work, but it might now. 2009-03-16T03:58:27 not* 2009-03-16T03:58:49 well, I'm not sure how the devtime you got is implemented, but if you do it it the way killerx said, using libfs or such, it is simply adding extra files... 2009-03-16T03:59:24 (of course some will complain it is like the current procfs mess, but you can say you are just copying plan9, so... 2009-03-16T03:59:28 uriel: it's a character device... I just don't know if it's kosher to put multiple device entries in one file 2009-03-16T03:59:47 uriel: yeah, that seems to be getting it through enough 2009-03-16T03:59:51 ah, then nevermind, but then it is going to have to be redone anyway :/ 2009-03-16T04:00:20 well, I don't think /dev/time would be, right? 2009-03-16T04:00:28 as long as you can mount over it 2009-03-16T04:00:49 not sure what you mean... 2009-03-16T04:01:18 I just think it would be simpler and easier to get in if doing the whole devcons in one fs 2009-03-16T04:01:24 (just as it is done in plan9 2009-03-16T04:02:06 well, hopefully if we get enough of glendix in the kernel, we can port cons 2009-03-16T04:02:10 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T04:02:20 but maybe not, I haven't looked much at the plan 9 side of the code. 2009-03-16T04:02:56 devcons is a bit of a grabbag of random stuff 2009-03-16T04:02:56 the current /dev/time is a little limited... you modprobe the time.ko file and it just magically appears in /dev 2009-03-16T04:03:10 uriel: yeah, I didn't really like the description in the man page. 2009-03-16T04:03:27 there's all sorts of system info files and stuff. 2009-03-16T04:03:43 well, there isn't all that much sense if having separate fs for each of that stuff, most of them are just a few lines of code 2009-03-16T04:03:47 /dev/time as is works for /dev/time, but I don't think we can scale it. 2009-03-16T04:03:53 yeah, as it would be for libfs. 2009-03-16T04:04:10 where at least we can throw things into one module. 2009-03-16T04:04:24 the thing is, though, I don't know if these will then be network transparent. 2009-03-16T04:04:33 yea, that is what I thought 2009-03-16T04:04:42 I would hope so, but the only thing that's network transparent is FUSE 2009-03-16T04:04:47 (which *is* handy) 2009-03-16T04:05:18 we could, in theory, implement all this stuff on FUSE and serve it via 9P (hopefully via 9p, if not, something else) 2009-03-16T04:05:33 but I do'ntknow if FUSE will be too slow. 2009-03-16T04:05:59 it has to use glibc I think, and a bunch of other crap before it goes down to libfs... 2009-03-16T04:08:30 I don't even want to think about getting /dev/draw to map onto fb devices or what have you. 2009-03-16T04:09:51 FUSE is network transparent? 2009-03-16T04:10:02 and why not do it in 9p then? 2009-03-16T04:10:11 uriel: yep, someone put in patched 2 or 3 releases ago. 2009-03-16T04:10:23 oh snap! 9p can sit on top of fuse, can't it? 2009-03-16T04:10:23 and I still don't see what either buys you, most of the info exported is kernel stuff, a kernel fs makes more sense 2009-03-16T04:10:39 sit on top of fuse? 2009-03-16T04:10:48 nevermind. 2009-03-16T04:10:52 what do you want to have anything to do with fuse? 2009-03-16T04:10:57 I'm having a hard time staying awake here. 2009-03-16T04:11:14 just write a 9p server, and that is it, if you want it in user space, which in this case I'm not sure I see why one would want to 2009-03-16T04:11:25 heh, /me is having trouble sleeping :/ 2009-03-16T04:11:35 heh 2009-03-16T04:11:37 that blows. 2009-03-16T04:11:44 benadryl? that'll put you out. 2009-03-16T04:12:00 I got some sleeping pills, but I don't like to take them 2009-03-16T04:12:17 diphenhydramine? Same thing as benadryl. Mild SSRI. 2009-03-16T04:12:34 if it's something stronger, yeah, you don't want to hit them much. 2009-03-16T04:12:47 I don't take anything, really. Except asprin. 2009-03-16T04:14:42 and no, despite the name, I am not a doctor. 2009-03-16T04:17:08 hehe 2009-03-16T04:20:45 hmmm, I see someone has contributed plan9 authentication 2009-03-16T04:20:50 in one of the patches. 2009-03-16T04:21:01 codo: yes, that was Ashwin, he works at Google now. 2009-03-16T04:21:06 I think someone here knows him... 2009-03-16T04:21:18 Interesting. 2009-03-16T04:21:22 * codo really wants to work in google :D 2009-03-16T04:21:33 but first I got to improve my coding skills :P 2009-03-16T04:21:35 good luck. They're not hiring (much) 2009-03-16T04:21:49 well, I know. A friend of mine is a product manager at Google. 2009-03-16T04:21:54 rather mentor :) 2009-03-16T04:21:56 they had a massive scale back, so I didn't end up there. Nor did my friend. 2009-03-16T04:22:01 I had an inside recommendation, too. 2009-03-16T04:22:05 our time will come later. 2009-03-16T04:22:15 right now I would call myself unfit for g00gle. 2009-03-16T04:22:20 * codo is a bad programmer :| 2009-03-16T04:22:21 they're just trying to keep things tight because of the nuclear holocaust the exonomy is having. 2009-03-16T04:22:33 thats an interesting view, thedoctor 2009-03-16T04:22:45 codo: just keep coding. One day you'll look at it and go, hmm, it's not too bad anymore. 2009-03-16T04:22:57 thedoctor: yeah, thats plan. 2009-03-16T04:23:16 codo: that was their explanation. I was told they're cutting back on all hires because of the economic situation. 2009-03-16T04:23:29 Hell, Zoran was in a hiring freeze when I left in November. 2009-03-16T04:23:32 one of the things, I really want to contribute is to develop an open source project that would convert audio to text. 2009-03-16T04:23:35 I guess they figured things will be ok. 2009-03-16T04:23:48 if google has problems, then I reckon everyone else will have. 2009-03-16T04:23:53 codo: yeah, speech recognition on Linux /sucks/ 2009-03-16T04:24:22 there's perlbox and cvoicecontrol. CMU's sphinx. But nothing really works well, and they're all a bitch to set up 2009-03-16T04:24:27 thedoctor: and moreover I want to be able to get any video without transcripts to have captions for us. 2009-03-16T04:25:00 What is done for closed captioning right now is 2009-03-16T04:25:11 you input an .srt file or something and then the transcripts appear in the video. 2009-03-16T04:25:28 However, there are some other talks like say TED talks and they dont have transcripts. 2009-03-16T04:25:29 codo: there are huge issues to overcome with timing. 2009-03-16T04:25:37 yeah. 2009-03-16T04:25:46 that's the biggest problem with CC. 2009-03-16T04:25:47 also transcripts require human manual intervention 2009-03-16T04:25:51 thedoctor: exactly 2009-03-16T04:25:56 we dont get to hear quality talks 2009-03-16T04:26:04 sometimes hearing talks helps you know. 2009-03-16T04:26:22 and realtime detection sucks, every time I sit to watch a talk at RIT I feel bad if they're too lazy to get an interpreter and just rely on CC 2009-03-16T04:26:28 live CC really really blows. 2009-03-16T04:26:30 I wrote to this guy in google and he said he will talk to the usability and accessibility team. 2009-03-16T04:26:43 the problem with live CC is 2009-03-16T04:26:52 sometimes manual transcribers cant get human accent 2009-03-16T04:26:59 yeah. It's not even just an issue for hard of hearing folks... you can't index something without text 2009-03-16T04:27:07 for eg, I had an indian prof in my univ, but his accent was tough to transcribe. 2009-03-16T04:27:19 codo: definitely. Audio quality is also an issue. 2009-03-16T04:27:26 talker's speed, etc. 2009-03-16T04:27:30 yeah. 2009-03-16T04:27:43 so there was a guy called greg millam at google 2009-03-16T04:28:02 he is on the team that added javascript functionality to youtube to be able to upload caption files. 2009-03-16T04:28:06 i envy him :P 2009-03-16T04:28:22 getting paid to do something that really helps society, phew. 2009-03-16T04:28:38 but its not that much path breaking work anyways. 2009-03-16T04:28:59 there is this MIT lecture browser, so I told them about this need. 2009-03-16T04:29:02 They never got back to me. 2009-03-16T04:29:30 yeah, I don't understand why people don't think about accessility for blind and hard of hearing people. 2009-03-16T04:29:41 accessibility for blind is way ahead 2009-03-16T04:29:51 its only the hard of hearing impaired thing thats sucking 2009-03-16T04:29:57 there are software like festival 2009-03-16T04:30:01 it's not like it's a huge burden to include textual media, and it then gives you awesome ontological support 2009-03-16T04:30:02 for blinds, I'm told. 2009-03-16T04:30:11 festival isn't that good. 2009-03-16T04:30:17 and braile terminals are iffy. 2009-03-16T04:30:31 again, people don't understand that plain text is *important* 2009-03-16T04:30:48 yeah. 2009-03-16T04:31:19 codo: what mit lecture browser? 2009-03-16T04:31:54 http://web.sls.csail.mit.edu/lectures/ 2009-03-16T04:31:56 Title: MIT Lecture Browser (at web.sls.csail.mit.edu) 2009-03-16T04:32:09 * codo awes at Glenda` :P 2009-03-16T04:33:15 google releases lots of good technical videos, however not all of them are CC'ed :| 2009-03-16T04:33:30 blah, needs real player 2009-03-16T04:33:34 I watch most of movies using torrents. Because I want subtitles. 2009-03-16T04:33:42 uriel: heh that sucks you know now :) 2009-03-16T04:33:43 my god... Real needs to die. 2009-03-16T04:33:48 they dont even bother to reply to people. 2009-03-16T04:33:56 uriel: did you know they were 19th most-visited website 2 years ago? 2009-03-16T04:33:56 if MIT researchers are like this, death to them. 2009-03-16T04:34:00 how are they still in busines? 2009-03-16T04:34:37 * uriel doesn't want to know... 2009-03-16T04:35:00 anyway, I can sort of tollerate their standalone player, I just hate embeded shit on my browser 2009-03-16T04:35:01 IBM had this viavoce something. 2009-03-16T04:35:18 so when a top executive of IBM came down to visit Bangalore, I was one of the only 3 selected to talk to him. 2009-03-16T04:35:54 however he never got around to implementing that at ibm workplaces. 2009-03-16T04:36:09 Attending team meetings and getting to know nothing and in end bug an employee for details of meeting 2009-03-16T04:36:12 was too much for me. 2009-03-16T04:36:41 viavoice kind of died. 2009-03-16T04:36:53 however, IBM still continues to be disabled patron in terms of hiring. 2009-03-16T04:37:00 they have lots of number of hearing impaired working for them. 2009-03-16T04:37:14 I was probably one of the few hearing impaired to work for IBM in India. 2009-03-16T04:37:26 may be around 2-3 thats all :P 2009-03-16T04:37:49 They've got this accessibility team something, but they suck. 2009-03-16T04:39:30 ok thedoctor I think I'll study gantis source ? 2009-03-16T04:39:32 is that fine ? 2009-03-16T04:39:32 ;d 2009-03-16T04:39:33 :D 2009-03-16T04:39:39 sure, why not? 2009-03-16T04:39:52 the big thing that needs to be finished is making PAM and su use p9auth 2009-03-16T04:40:02 i.e., the userspace stuff. 2009-03-16T04:40:08 it's on google code. 2009-03-16T04:40:08 so studying p9auth is really useful ? 2009-03-16T04:40:18 yeah I'm browsing some source code he has on google groups. 2009-03-16T04:40:52 it will show you how the Linux driver model works, and show you about plan 9's authentication, which is miles ahead of Linux's 2009-03-16T04:40:57 are glendix IRC logs logged public :O ? 2009-03-16T04:41:10 thedoctor: sure let us see if I can understand. 2009-03-16T04:42:23 codo: yeah, this channel is logged. Although there hasn't been much useful conversation since we started logging. We're hoping that Google Summer of Code students will come here and to the mailing list and ask questions. The logs will make sure their info is not lost. 2009-03-16T04:44:13 * codo thinks he should be careful bitching about big blue :) 2009-03-16T04:44:27 I don't want to sound harsh on someone ;) 2009-03-16T04:44:34 codo: they might send their corporate ninjas after you in your sleep. 2009-03-16T04:44:53 thedoctor: I'll be happy if they kill me off, the world is a sad place anyways ;) 2009-03-16T04:45:00 it's ok, they're like any big company. I know one of the VPs. Lives down the road from my house 2009-03-16T04:45:29 so, whats your opinion about him ? 2009-03-16T04:45:34 he's a nice guy. 2009-03-16T04:45:47 and IBM is a mixed bag, I guess, like anything else. 2009-03-16T04:46:11 god, ibm probaly is bigger than some countries 2009-03-16T04:46:20 it is. 2009-03-16T04:46:21 how the hell can one generalize about such thing? 2009-03-16T04:47:04 actually, if you put second life on the map, it's GDP is bigger than every african nation except south africa and egypt. 2009-03-16T04:47:07 I think. 2009-03-16T04:47:15 uriel: you can't, other than say it's a mixed bag. 2009-03-16T04:47:27 exactly 2009-03-16T04:47:29 because that's the only accurate statement about something that big and diverse. 2009-03-16T04:49:47 yeah thedoctor 2009-03-16T04:49:51 they have bad things and good things. 2009-03-16T04:49:56 a respectable company anyways. 2009-03-16T04:50:09 * codo respects them for giving me first ever job in industry. 2009-03-16T04:50:35 however they need to do something about adding fun to the workplace. 2009-03-16T04:51:00 ha. Yeah, this guy I know was getting paid slightly more to write JCL. 2009-03-16T04:51:17 and was all "OH MAN, I'M BETTER THAN YOU WITH MY 4.0 AND IBM JOB" 2009-03-16T04:52:08 uhhuh. JCL is fun as a root canal. I had 3 people between me and the CEO. I was in charge of an entire project. I gave talks to the whole workforce at Burlington. I made slightly less. 2009-03-16T04:52:12 I think I win. 2009-03-16T04:52:34 and by slighly less, I mean 1.25 USD per hour less. 2009-03-16T04:52:51 yeah 2009-03-16T04:53:02 most of people who work for IBM have this sad thing called show offing 2009-03-16T04:53:06 I don't like that. 2009-03-16T04:53:12 at IBM you need to be show offy 2009-03-16T04:53:18 to be able to rise up the ladder. 2009-03-16T04:53:24 yep. 2009-03-16T04:53:31 They do have their fair share of awesome folks. 2009-03-16T04:53:41 traverse the 17 layers of management to get more monets. 2009-03-16T04:53:44 moneys* 2009-03-16T04:54:54 its sadly fucked up hierrarchically. 2009-03-16T04:55:13 I had 6 guys above me just in India and the head of IBM India reported to some 20 layers 2009-03-16T04:55:16 or so 2009-03-16T04:55:18 :P 2009-03-16T04:55:22 and they never meet their sub-ordinates. 2009-03-16T04:55:28 that kills enthusiasm of people there. 2009-03-16T04:56:14 I don't know if its same in google, yahoo or Microsoft. 2009-03-16T04:56:24 these companies certainly have more fun than IBM inside the comps. 2009-03-16T04:56:33 MSFT, its not as bad, but it is like IBM 2009-03-16T04:56:35 IBM sucks in keeping their employees happy and filled with fun. 2009-03-16T04:56:40 some like it the ibm way. 2009-03-16T04:56:49 google has less management, it's more like a bunch of semi-autonomous teams. 2009-03-16T04:56:51 some don't. 2009-03-16T04:56:52 dunno about yahoo 2009-03-16T05:27:36 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T05:36:41 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-16T05:36:43 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-16T05:52:58 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T05:53:08 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-16T05:53:13 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-16T06:04:16 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-16T06:43:34 !praise Glenda` 2009-03-16T06:43:34 Murmuria: Error: There are no praises in my database for #glendix. 2009-03-16T06:51:54 !stats 2009-03-16T06:51:54 Murmuria: I have 1 registered users with 0 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins. 2009-03-16T06:52:18 !whoami 2009-03-16T06:52:18 Murmuria: I don't recognize you. 2009-03-16T06:52:30 aah 2009-03-16T06:56:44 !whoami 2009-03-16T06:56:44 Murmuria: Murmuria 2009-03-16T06:56:51 :-) 2009-03-16T07:21:00 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T07:34:45 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-16T07:41:02 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-16T08:52:24 *** elgi is now known as olegfink 2009-03-16T08:54:02 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T09:47:20 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-16T15:32:21 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T15:38:01 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T15:38:14 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-16T15:38:19 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-16T16:01:34 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T16:01:47 hey uriel, you there? 2009-03-16T16:02:46 uriel: if you get this, could you come up with some kind of list of exactly what the issues are with getting a sane union file system working on Linux so we have something concrete? 2009-03-16T16:03:45 I saw some discussion on LKML looking around about how lseek on a union directory is hard to do properly... but I don't know if Plan 9 even supports that and in that case if lseek could just return -ENOSYS or something. 2009-03-16T16:14:36 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-16T16:20:59 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T16:44:52 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-16T17:12:09 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-16T17:30:28 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T18:15:03 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-16T18:49:12 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T19:36:33 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-16T19:39:56 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T19:43:34 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-16T19:53:09 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-16T20:37:20 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-16T21:02:41 ping? 2009-03-16T21:03:10 pong 2009-03-16T21:03:38 does anyone know exactly what the problems are with the union directory thing? 2009-03-16T21:03:50 I think we should have a list of things that need to be addressed with it. 2009-03-16T21:04:54 i think that was discussed on 9fans. 2009-03-16T21:05:00 when? 2009-03-16T21:08:13 olegfink: this topic? http://fixunix.com/plan9/47034-re-9fans-9p-vs-fuse.html 2009-03-16T21:08:15 Title: Re: [9fans] 9P vs. FUSE - Unix Linux Forum (at fixunix.com) 2009-03-16T21:19:43 thedoctor: the lseek issue is not an issue on plan9 2009-03-16T21:19:56 thedoctor: on plan9 union dirs and non-union dirs are exactly the same 2009-03-16T21:20:17 thedoctor: as for linux, I don't know, because I'm not linux vfs expert, but I'm sure viro knows the issues quite well 2009-03-16T21:21:02 uriel: on Linux the problem is some crap with the size of the dirents 2009-03-16T21:21:04 and no, I don't think it has anything to do with the 9p vx. fuse topic, because it has nothing to do with specific file systems, and all to do with how the vfs works on linux 2009-03-16T21:21:21 thedoctor: could be, the lseek issue seemed plausible too 2009-03-16T21:21:34 uriel: I didn't know if there was discussion in that 9fans topic, but there was not 2009-03-16T21:21:35 I think there are issues with symlinks too, but I could be wrong... 2009-03-16T21:21:58 I don't remember anyone discussing it on 9fans, I do remember some discussion in lkml years ago 2009-03-16T21:22:11 (not in a plan9-context I think, just in a more general one) 2009-03-16T21:22:31 uriel: they're basically confused about how to do the dirent thing, whether they can cache dirents properly and if they should be the sum of the original item and the items brought in by the union mount 2009-03-16T21:22:55 plan 9 does things much more simply, avoiding these problems. 2009-03-16T21:23:18 there are also some caching problems... 2009-03-16T21:23:37 from what I could find. I just wanted to put all these issues in a list someplace 2009-03-16T21:23:58 yea, the caching issues also sounds likely to me... 2009-03-16T21:24:17 I still think the best is to check with viro, I'm sure he has the most clear picture of the topic around... 2009-03-16T21:24:22 something about overlaying a new directory on top of a union-mount is a pathological case. 2009-03-16T21:24:26 (if you are not too scared of him ;)) 2009-03-16T21:24:36 uriel: I just don't know him. 2009-03-16T21:24:49 but I could email him if you don't have the time. 2009-03-16T21:24:57 heh, not me either, only chatted briefly with him on irc a couple of times when he used to hang on #kernelnewbies 2009-03-16T21:25:12 I didn't know if you knew specifics as well, since I don't know the specifics 2009-03-16T21:25:18 I'd rather you do it, I really have zero understanding of the linxu vfs internals 2009-03-16T21:25:28 ok 2009-03-16T21:26:04 I just tried to keep track of the topic as an interested user, but last I read on it was when the change to allow trees to show up on multiple paths went in 2009-03-16T21:26:25 (and that never made any sense to me, I'm not smart enough to understand that stuff) 2009-03-16T21:26:50 but I remember he said that the change was independent of the union mount feature, which would be a separate issue he would deal with later 2009-03-16T21:27:01 but this was years ago... viro likes to take his time ;) 2009-03-16T21:27:02 hm 2009-03-16T21:27:11 what's the multiple path tree thing? 2009-03-16T21:27:32 being able to duplicate one directory tree in multiple places? 2009-03-16T21:28:13 yea 2009-03-16T21:28:21 that sounds deceptively simple. 2009-03-16T21:28:32 well, it was more complicated, I didn't really understand it 2009-03-16T21:29:05 yeah, the linux VFS is "fossilizing" making it harder and harder to do cool things with. 2009-03-16T21:29:10 which is why FUSE was so appealing. 2009-03-16T21:29:20 (you would think bind mounts would give you that, but it was more complicated) 2009-03-16T21:29:28 yeah, you would. 2009-03-16T21:29:47 well, it is still better than the BSD vfs 2009-03-16T21:29:50 I wonder if we should add in working on 9P on Linux to our gsoc topics 2009-03-16T21:29:52 which is a disgrace 2009-03-16T21:30:09 yeah, I've heard horror stories about other VFSs 2009-03-16T21:30:23 9P on Linux is... not in great shape. 2009-03-16T21:30:39 I have read viro say the only reason he works on the linux kernel is because he checked out the bsd vfs and ran away screaming 2009-03-16T21:30:46 hahaha 2009-03-16T21:30:56 I should take a look at it... 2009-03-16T21:31:07 9p on Linux sucks, but that is what you get when nobody uses certain code 2009-03-16T21:31:14 yeah. 2009-03-16T21:31:30 what I would like to see is some kind of 9p testing suite 2009-03-16T21:31:38 that would be useful for all 9p implementations 2009-03-16T21:31:47 like a compliance test? 2009-03-16T21:31:52 yea 2009-03-16T21:31:55 yeah. 2009-03-16T21:32:13 well, 9P isn't vastly complex... a test suite would probably be pretty easy 2009-03-16T21:32:28 the vfs people use dbbench or whatever other standard fs tests, but they are not good fits to stress the corner cases of 9p 2009-03-16T21:32:33 oh god.. BSD's vfs is scary. 2009-03-16T21:32:41 told you so :) 2009-03-16T21:32:50 they hacked it in underneath the filesystems 2009-03-16T21:32:55 and above the syscall interface. 2009-03-16T21:32:58 as an afterthough... 2009-03-16T21:33:07 good thing I didn't eat recently. I feel a little green. 2009-03-16T21:33:15 I was speaking with theo some years ago, and he told me: 'we have given up on fixing the vfs, people have been trying for twenty years, and nobody has been able to fix it' 2009-03-16T21:33:25 god, it's horrible! 2009-03-16T21:34:06 at least the openbsd people had the sense to start removing crap, like the abortion of 'unionfs' bsds have 2009-03-16T21:34:12 heh 2009-03-16T21:34:27 they said: it is broken, why the fuck keep it? good thinking.. 2009-03-16T21:34:39 yep 2009-03-16T21:34:43 the netbsd and freebsd people instead keep ading idiotic shit, like magic symlinks 2009-03-16T21:34:55 symlinks are already an abortion bad enough as it is... 2009-03-16T21:35:05 tell me about it... 2009-03-16T21:35:35 at least Linux's VFS is fairly simple and doesn't break three layers of abstraction in the kernel... 2009-03-16T21:35:53 really the only thing I dislike is the overhead for creating superblocks and crap like that. 2009-03-16T21:36:00 yea, that is what I have heard, the main complexity on linux vfs seems to be related to caching.. 2009-03-16T21:36:19 oh, and another abortion: mmap 2009-03-16T21:36:30 which is why FUSE is nice... you just write a couple of standard calls, and you can ignore the rest if you want. 2009-03-16T21:36:40 you just have to register a struct to get the FS working. 2009-03-16T21:36:44 ha, mmap. 2009-03-16T21:36:46 mmap plunders thru every abstraction layer known to man 2009-03-16T21:37:07 how about /dev/shm? 2009-03-16T21:37:30 heh, that is quite awful too, but seems simpler than mmap at least... 2009-03-16T21:37:53 it's a nice example of "oh, shit, that was actually a bad idea" backpedalling 2009-03-16T21:38:11 mmap comes from VMS or some other such hideous monster IIRC 2009-03-16T21:38:15 I like how it was decided that mem-mapped I/O was bad, but let's include a way to mem-map a file. 2009-03-16T21:38:28 aren't files I/O? wtf? consistency fail. 2009-03-16T21:38:50 well, apparently read() and write() were too hard for some people 2009-03-16T21:38:57 yeah, god forbid. 2009-03-16T21:39:17 I have "actively" never used mmap. 2009-03-16T21:39:22 but if you look at the byzantine mmap interface, it is clearly transplanted from a system completely alien to unix style 2009-03-16T21:40:02 uriel: I'm not very familiar with segattach(), how does it work/compare? 2009-03-16T21:42:12 am I right in believing you can do shared memory with it without it being a hack? 2009-03-16T21:42:54 or is it more like shmget() in that regard? 2009-03-16T21:43:50 hmmm... well, on plan9 you do shared memory mostly with rfork() 2009-03-16T21:44:41 shared memory among unrelated processes is really frowned upon, use pipes or other standard stream oriented approaches 2009-03-16T21:44:48 I see. 2009-03-16T21:45:40 oh, I guess the whole "note" system addresses IPC, which I think is a lot of the impetus for shared mem in Linux 2009-03-16T21:45:54 I forget about that though because it's another thing I know little about. 2009-03-16T21:53:07 not really 2009-03-16T21:53:12 notes should not be used for ipc 2009-03-16T21:53:21 file systems should be used for ipc :) 2009-03-16T21:53:28 (or pipes) 2009-03-16T21:53:47 ah, so the note facility is more for "process control"? 2009-03-16T21:54:12 notes, like signals, should only be used to kill processes (this is an approximation of a Dennis quote I don't have at hand) 2009-03-16T21:54:45 (well, that implies also to debug and other such things, but not for ipc) 2009-03-16T21:54:55 I grok it 2009-03-16T21:55:06 otes are better than signals, but are still somewhat problematic 2009-03-16T21:55:47 uriel: aside from being represented as files, they are pretty much the same though, correct? 2009-03-16T21:55:59 mostly due to their async nature, and there is the whole mess of what to do when getting one when you are in a syscalls and so on (but at least there are no 'restartable' syscalls or other such hacks) 2009-03-16T21:56:57 yea, and that they are strings, well the semantics of signals on PoSix can be really convoluted (and even more so on specific *nixs), again mostly having to do with what happens if you get one in the middle of this or that sycalls 2009-03-16T21:57:21 right. How does plan 9 handle notes while in a syscall? Same as Unix? 2009-03-16T21:57:28 so plan9 is a little bit better, but they share some of the same issues 2009-03-16T21:57:59 it seems like some of the gaps in Linux's procfs are pretty tractable... 2009-03-16T21:58:02 to be honest, I can't remember :) I think it waits until the syscall returns, and then forces it to process the note 2009-03-16T21:58:11 that sounds pretty sane. 2009-03-16T21:58:31 well, except that you can't kill processes that are on a blocking syscalls 2009-03-16T21:58:40 well... for 80% of cases. I can imagine someone wanting to kill a process because a write hung itself 2009-03-16T21:58:49 yep 2009-03-16T21:59:02 so what can you do if they "never" return? 2009-03-16T21:59:14 ah, the other issue with signals and notes are what you do if you get one while you are in a signal/note handler! 2009-03-16T21:59:33 heh, re-entrant handlers. Which no one seems to care about writing... 2009-03-16T22:00:01 well, there plan9 takes the sane approach IMHO, and if you trigger a note in a note handler, you get killed right away 2009-03-16T22:00:07 just as you justly deserve 2009-03-16T22:00:09 ugh, the PDL software I worked on basically had a timer-driver fire off SIGALRM every x nanoseconds and the scheduler was called from the sighandler. 2009-03-16T22:00:22 yck 2009-03-16T22:00:36 uriel: so if something is in a blocking read that won't return, how can I kill it? 2009-03-16T22:00:43 yck is right.... 2009-03-16T22:00:58 of course we had someone who thought spinlocks were "always faster" 2009-03-16T22:01:16 again, use of notes is very much discouraged, it is only used for sysadmin tasks (and only for killing long running processes at that), and by the kernel when the process does something stupid 2009-03-16T22:01:51 thedoctor: there are extra-nasty notes that will kill you straight out no matter what you are up to, iirc, let me check, has been a while since I needed that 2009-03-16T22:02:10 ah, so there's essentially a "kill -9" note you can send? 2009-03-16T22:03:21 actually, I'm wrong 2009-03-16T22:03:33 you write kill to the /proc/$pid/ctl 2009-03-16T22:03:41 instead of to /proc/$pid/note 2009-03-16T22:03:44 I thought so. 2009-03-16T22:03:52 so it is not even technically a note 2009-03-16T22:04:10 a fairly clean design actually 2009-03-16T22:04:11 that's in the original paper for plan 9, right? where they describe the proc filesystem in detail 2009-03-16T22:04:35 uriel: like I said, it seems like the gaps in Linux's proc are fillable. 2009-03-16T22:04:38 without too much trouble. 2009-03-16T22:05:57 I'm not sure, i'm just looking at the man page :) 2009-03-16T22:06:32 * uriel has read the main plan9 paper quite a few time, but has not yet completely commited it to memory word by word :) 2009-03-16T22:06:37 jej 2009-03-16T22:06:40 heh* 2009-03-16T22:07:07 getting /mem seems doable. 2009-03-16T22:07:29 you usually first try to send a note, because that gives the process a chance to end life more gracefully, but if that doesn't work, the ctl file can take care of things 2009-03-16T22:07:39 and there's your shared memory on steroids. 2009-03-16T22:07:46 uriel: yep. 2009-03-16T22:09:23 a nice thing about notes is that because they are strings, they can include extra info, like the program counter 2009-03-16T22:10:22 ah, right, having kill and such in /ctl is better since you don't have to implement "note handlers" for them that way. 2009-03-16T22:10:30 well, /can't/ 2009-03-16T22:11:02 I really think all of these are do-able. Some of them are just renames. 2009-03-16T22:11:25 I mean, putting /mem in there is a security issue until we get rid of suid and the root user, but after that, we're fine. 2009-03-16T22:12:35 I don't think that one needs to be a top priority, I doubtg it is used much 2009-03-16T22:14:00 right, we can always do it later. 2009-03-16T22:14:15 but /ctl would be nice to have even for non-glendix folds 2009-03-16T22:14:19 folks* 2009-03-16T22:19:49 yup 2009-03-16T22:27:07 oh wow. This *is* dead easy. 2009-03-16T22:27:24 proc is really extensible. Adding a file is a matter of writing three functions 2009-03-16T22:27:31 and calling module_init 2009-03-16T22:37:38 actually, per process stuff looks harder. 2009-03-16T22:42:20 I'm tempted to drop Ken's comment about X11 on the linux kernel. 2009-03-16T22:42:32 I can't find any code anywhere that does anything. It's all abstraction... 2009-03-16T22:49:37 hehe 2009-03-16T22:50:16 I can't find where the per-pid things get set up :( 2009-03-16T22:50:18 re /proc, I'm not sure if piggi-backing on the existing /proc will work out, there might be file name conflicts, and the kernel people probably will frown on adding more stuff to /proc 2009-03-16T22:50:40 by the way, how much of /proc is standartized? 2009-03-16T22:50:57 iirc interix has just /proc/nnnn 2009-03-16T22:50:57 olegfink: what do you mean? 2009-03-16T22:51:03 I know there will be a couple conflicts, but not many. Actually, I think symlinks will do 2009-03-16T22:51:15 olegfink: not much, I think, bsds don't have much in /proc 2009-03-16T22:51:22 olegfink: not much is standardized, but it is kind of "frozen" in linux 2009-03-16T22:51:44 although, uriel I think the problem was adding shit to proc that didn't belong. This stuff does belong in /proc/$pid 2009-03-16T22:51:51 so I doubt there would be objections. 2009-03-16T22:51:53 * uriel still thinks a 9procfs is probably more sensible, but up to whoever does write the code :) 2009-03-16T22:52:08 thedoctor: good point 2009-03-16T22:53:12 well, 3 things re 9procfs: how many people will benefit, and we have to solve the union mount problem, and we'll have a load of file servers serving up related data if we get trigger happy. 2009-03-16T22:54:03 uriel: I think 9profcs would be good, but I don't want to be left with a huge project that's not in the kernel that 10 people will be powerless to maintain. 2009-03-16T22:54:08 yea, you are probably right 2009-03-16T22:54:09 I meant that /proc is a really wrong place to keep everything, given /sys 2009-03-16T22:54:50 olegfink: there was a problem with putting non-process related things in /proc, which is why they were moved to /sys (which is now getting kind of crapped up, but at least it's getting so in an organized way) 2009-03-16T22:55:12 I'm talking about adding per-process files, which would naturally go in /proc/$pid. I doubt anyone would complain. 2009-03-16T22:55:29 welll, it's LKML, so some asshat will complain, but I think it would be "allowed" 2009-03-16T22:56:25 uriel: ha, there's a MacFUSE-based procfs for Crapintosh 2009-03-16T22:56:54 yea, I seem to remember hearing about that 2009-03-16T22:59:04 ha, it has a screenshot file. 2009-03-16T22:59:13 and camera file 2009-03-16T23:00:16 some folks wanted an fs for gimp 2009-03-16T23:00:40 heh, why not? 2009-03-16T23:01:08 there's an imgfs on FUSE that gives you rotated/scaled files from any image file 2009-03-16T23:01:14 sure, just mentioned it as a rather exotic use 2009-03-16T23:01:21 yeah 2009-03-16T23:01:51 well, I think the screenshot file is kinda cool. I made this crappy thing called xorgfs on FUSE a little while back 2009-03-16T23:02:03 it gives you mouse coordinates and the pastebuffer. 2009-03-16T23:02:18 anything else would get really hackish. 2009-03-16T23:02:49 and X11 sucks... 300 LOC to read the paste buffer. Plus this was like between 2-3 am on two separate weekdays. 2009-03-16T23:02:53 so I abandoned it. 2009-03-16T23:11:44 heh 2009-03-16T23:11:50 cat /dev/snarf ;) 2009-03-16T23:11:58 that's what I was after. 2009-03-16T23:12:08 I called it snarf, too. 2009-03-16T23:12:14 btw, there you got another gsoc project 2009-03-16T23:12:21 but coding on top of x11 sucks. 2009-03-16T23:12:31 provide a /dev/draw and /dev/snarf and so on for X 2009-03-16T23:12:42 ah, you are doing just that :) 2009-03-16T23:12:43 hell, there's even example code. 2009-03-16T23:12:54 I have /snarf and /mouse 2009-03-16T23:12:56 :P 2009-03-16T23:13:00 ah, nice 2009-03-16T23:13:08 but yeah, if that's something someone wants to do, there's a start. 2009-03-16T23:13:09 you might want to look into p9p's draw device 2009-03-16T23:13:25 I had, and was looking at something like 2009-03-16T23:13:42 numbered directories for each window, what have you 2009-03-16T23:13:58 but interfacing with X11's notion of a bitmap made me queasy. 2009-03-16T23:14:15 I was looking at taking code from ImageMagick's screen capture functionality. 2009-03-16T23:14:20 and it was... hairt. 2009-03-16T23:14:22 hairy* 2009-03-16T23:14:34 see also /usr/local/plan9/src/libdraw/x11-itrans.c 2009-03-16T23:15:19 yeah, that would be a new place to pick up. I hadn't had p9p installed when I started xoergfs 2009-03-16T23:15:20 well, the p9p libdraw already should do most you need, it should probably be easy to extract it from p9p 2009-03-16T23:15:54 yeah. 2009-03-16T23:15:59 and given how much pain has gone into the p9p draw device, I wouldn't want to repeat the experience myself ;) 2009-03-16T23:16:15 (mostly due to the x people breaking their interfaces every other release) 2009-03-16T23:16:19 yeah, that's why I quit xorgfs :P 2009-03-16T23:16:33 wise 2009-03-16T23:16:42 I never told Anant about that code... I wonder if he'd want to put it up as a possible task... 2009-03-16T23:17:11 but even then... network transparency? implementing rio on top of it? I don't know.... 2009-03-16T23:17:26 it might be easier to do if one uses xrender, but apparently the tricky stuff is not the rendering, but the input/focus code 2009-03-16T23:17:31 moving it to something like /dev/fb maybe 2009-03-16T23:17:43 but on top of X11? 2009-03-16T23:17:53 well, I guess both will be useful 2009-03-16T23:18:10 (actually I think the one on top of x11 will be more useful, at least for the time being) 2009-03-16T23:18:14 xorgfs could be informational, but implementational I think would be unwise 2009-03-16T23:18:31 well, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it would work ok. 2009-03-16T23:18:36 there is a port of xorg to draw, so one could run x inside a draw that uses /dev/fb, but ... 2009-03-16T23:19:02 ah, you're saying it's easier to go the other way? 2009-03-16T23:19:05 I understand. 2009-03-16T23:19:07 well, p9p already implements almost all that is needed for xorgfs, AFAIK 2009-03-16T23:19:28 and all that's needed is to make it show up as an fs? 2009-03-16T23:19:37 oh, just saying it can be done both ways... actually in the short term i think it is easier to do it on top of x 2009-03-16T23:19:51 well, then, xorgfs is probably the way to go. Although it's very straightforward code (read: inefficient) 2009-03-16T23:20:11 we can worry about eficiency after it works ;) 2009-03-16T23:20:48 well, I basically do if(strcmp(pathname, "mouse"))...else if (strcmp(pathname, "snarf") 2009-03-16T23:20:52 it's... bad. 2009-03-16T23:40:13 nah, doesn't seem all that bad.. 2009-03-16T23:48:08 well, if you want to look... http://github.com/jrm8005/xorgfs/tree/master 2009-03-16T23:48:13 Title: jrm8005's xorgfs at master - GitHub (at github.com) 2009-03-17T03:01:20 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T03:09:22 hey, I've got an idea for devcons 2009-03-17T03:09:35 having a file where you can get the bitmap of a camera from. 2009-03-17T03:31:12 *** crink has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T03:32:27 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T03:49:55 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:01:20 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:02:51 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:06:16 *** thedocto1 has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:17:31 *** crink has left #glendix 2009-03-17T04:17:58 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:26:25 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:26:41 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:26:43 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-17T04:26:55 *** thedocto1 is now known as thedoctor 2009-03-17T04:49:47 *** jyujin_ has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:49:47 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:49:47 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:49:47 *** leimy has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:49:47 *** dagle has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:49:47 *** olegfink has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:49:47 *** ChanServ has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:49:47 *** uriel has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:49:47 *** stu8ball has quit IRC 2009-03-17T04:50:54 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:50:54 *** olegfink has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:50:54 *** jyujin_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:50:54 *** leimy has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:50:54 *** dagle has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:50:54 *** stu8ball has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:50:54 *** uriel has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:51:17 *** ChanServ has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T04:51:17 *** irc.freenode.net sets mode: +o ChanServ 2009-03-17T05:05:49 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T07:42:17 http://www.makelinux.net/kernel_map 2009-03-17T07:42:18 Title: Interactive map of Linux kernel (at www.makelinux.net) 2009-03-17T07:42:35 Might be handy to some folks here. 2009-03-17T07:54:40 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-17T07:54:42 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T08:03:39 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T09:21:58 *** stu8ball has quit IRC 2009-03-17T09:42:06 *** stu8ball has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T09:47:35 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-17T12:55:56 *** leimy has quit IRC 2009-03-17T12:56:33 *** leimy has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T14:43:39 codo: thanks! that map is useful to me... perfect timing... 2009-03-17T15:26:53 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-17T16:35:11 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T16:56:45 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-17T17:04:23 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-17T17:22:00 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T20:15:16 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T20:52:40 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-17T21:09:30 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-17T22:05:50 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-18T00:34:31 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T00:53:19 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-18T03:54:43 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T03:57:03 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-18T04:31:17 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T04:37:57 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-18T04:59:59 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-18T13:52:42 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T14:05:42 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-18T15:18:27 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T16:07:07 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T16:11:55 uriel, thedoctor, do you happen to know about the status of our GSoC application ? I thought March 18 was when they were announcing the final list of selected Orgs... 2009-03-18T17:32:45 well, 2.5 hrs to Noon PDT... list will be out soon... 2009-03-18T18:48:01 *** proq has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T19:10:18 *** nightstrike_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T19:10:45 *** nightstrike_ has left #glendix 2009-03-18T19:53:03 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T20:13:52 Murmuria: who will know? 2009-03-18T20:14:11 thedoctor: plan9 is in 2009-03-18T20:14:20 that's not us. 2009-03-18T20:14:22 the approved organisations names are up on google page 2009-03-18T20:14:23 yeah. 2009-03-18T20:14:24 :( 2009-03-18T20:17:05 http://socghop.appspot.com/program/accepted_orgs/google/gsoc2009 2009-03-18T20:17:07 Title: List all accepted orgs (at socghop.appspot.com) 2009-03-18T20:17:38 well, we will be happy to take applications for glendix projects under plan9... 2009-03-18T20:17:45 looks like no. 2009-03-18T20:17:47 (of course will depend on how many slots we get...) 2009-03-18T20:17:54 uriel: that's a plus. 2009-03-18T20:22:21 though plan9's idea list is already pretty big 2009-03-18T20:26:12 well, the ideas are never set on stone 2009-03-18T20:26:18 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-18T20:26:19 we are open to new student ideas always 2009-03-18T20:26:27 that's good 2009-03-18T20:32:09 uriel: in that case can you get one more idea on Plan9 Ideas page, that says "Glendix", and give a link to our ideas page from there.... 2009-03-18T20:32:25 and also ask them if Anant is on there as a mentor 2009-03-18T20:33:27 Anant has mentored for Mozilla and Gentoo earlier, he should have applied for Plan9 this year, but I dont know if Glendix made him not do it... 2009-03-18T20:33:50 oh wait, it was PHP and Gentoo 2009-03-18T20:33:57 he is on Mozilla this year 2009-03-18T20:35:24 Murmuria: he can still mentor for plan9 too 2009-03-18T20:36:48 and this won't keep out non GSOC guys like me if I Want to contribute ? 2009-03-18T20:36:49 oh, you can add new mentors even after now?! 2009-03-18T20:37:15 cool 2009-03-18T20:37:23 so we'll leave that to Anant... 2009-03-18T20:37:26 if a project gets selected for gsoc, only students, mentors are involved and non-gsoc guys are kept out ? 2009-03-18T20:37:43 but uriel, can you still talk to Plan9 and get one more idea in there, that says "glendix" 2009-03-18T20:38:11 codo: what do you mean? 2009-03-18T20:38:40 if you say, you want to do regular development for that org, the traditional way.. then go ahead... 2009-03-18T20:39:05 Murmuria: I graduated last sem. And If i want to contribute on glendix, I can do if glendix becomes gsoc project later on ? 2009-03-18T20:39:10 you are welcome.. any help will be greatly appreciatred 2009-03-18T20:39:46 *** codo has left #glendix 2009-03-18T20:39:51 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T20:39:55 GSoC is only means to get real n00b students to know that there is a project Glendix 2009-03-18T20:40:02 Murmuria: :) 2009-03-18T20:40:13 and motivate them with the fat $4500 price tag on the project 2009-03-18T20:40:37 heh 2009-03-18T20:44:23 who is lh on #gsoc btw ? 2009-03-18T20:44:36 I hear it is a woman, I'm not used to see women on IRC :O 2009-03-18T20:45:45 There's more women on the internet than there are in real life 2009-03-18T20:45:50 I'm sure of it 2009-03-18T20:46:03 they just don't IRC :-) 2009-03-18T20:46:29 I know. but I never heard a woman on IRC that too an admin on a channel on scale of #gsoc ! 2009-03-18T20:46:32 so who is she ? 2009-03-18T20:46:45 leslie hawthorne 2009-03-18T20:46:45 hmm 2009-03-18T20:46:55 may her tribe grow! 2009-03-18T20:47:04 * uriel rolls eyes 2009-03-18T20:48:40 geeze 2009-03-18T20:59:22 codo: she is bigger than just that 2009-03-18T20:59:30 she is GSOC program admin 2009-03-18T20:59:58 meaning, we got rejected by a team in which she has a very very strong voice 2009-03-18T20:59:58 yeah, read online just now. 2009-03-18T21:00:15 wow creepy, are we stalking some poor woman online? 2009-03-18T21:00:20 Yeah GSOC might not be the panacea always. 2009-03-18T21:00:27 just because she's on IRC? 2009-03-18T21:00:39 anyway, best of luck for getting into Plan9 2009-03-18T21:00:45 there could be some objectionable decisions always made. Do you guys know why you got rejected Murmuria ? 2009-03-18T21:00:50 I seem to have nothing to do with GSoC this year too 2009-03-18T21:01:07 I dont know 2009-03-18T21:01:27 maybe uriel or jyujin_ can find that out in the absence of KillerX 2009-03-18T21:01:32 GSoC seems to be about serving and satisfying googles open source policies. 2009-03-18T21:01:50 it hurts me to do all this admin type of work! 2009-03-18T21:02:09 as in ? what kind of admin work, sorry I didn't get you. 2009-03-18T21:02:12 as if coding for Glendix wasn't excitement ! :-| 2009-03-18T21:02:14 codo: you think? Maybe it's because they're dumping millions of dollars into it... 2009-03-18T21:02:44 Murmuria: I know, Glendix shows a lot of promise, but that's the thing, results for us are still off in the distance. 2009-03-18T21:03:16 ya, no matter how we potray ourselves, we are still a one man project 2009-03-18T21:03:26 even though the whole world is supporting it now 2009-03-18T21:03:33 Murmuria: don't worry one day glendix will be in reckoning. :) 2009-03-18T21:03:37 well, it's not so much that, it's just that even if we finish 10 things, we don't have really big results. 2009-03-18T21:03:47 we have a huge barrier to entry into the world of "utility" 2009-03-18T21:03:51 its sad that the little stub that I checked in is the firt and only non-Anant code in our repo 2009-03-18T21:04:06 I mean, hey, 8c running on linux unmodified is cool, but Linux has working compilers. 2009-03-18T21:04:21 it comes down to getting all the Wicked Cool Features (tm) working. 2009-03-18T21:04:22 ya, that too 2009-03-18T21:04:41 Murmuria: I'll try to code, I'm not a good programmer, but I want to contribute to open source projects big time. 2009-03-18T21:04:49 and try to take inspiration from you folks :) 2009-03-18T21:04:51 maybe once my /net is ready, there will be more interest! :) 2009-03-18T21:05:04 I don't still understand most of the stuffs you guys do. 2009-03-18T21:05:15 Amy how I had a look at ashwin gantis p9auth 2009-03-18T21:06:01 codo: if you want to look at some dead simple device driver, look at the /dev/time patch for linux. It's been mentioned recently on 9fans and LKML 2009-03-18T21:06:02 and I did learn some tidbits in theoretical aspects from gantis paper on how he did away the setuid based mechnism by p9auth. 2009-03-18T21:06:31 Ok wil do. 2009-03-18T21:06:36 s/wil/will 2009-03-18T21:06:41 codo, we need more work in that area! 2009-03-18T21:07:01 feel free to fetch the code from glendix.org 2009-03-18T21:07:03 I understand why linux has some bloatware as thedoctor and killerx said earlier. 2009-03-18T21:07:09 (dont try the /net as yet) 2009-03-18T21:07:14 /etc/passwd based access is not safe :) 2009-03-18T21:07:28 ganti's paper is one of beautifully written papers I've read. 2009-03-18T21:07:39 hmm 2009-03-18T21:08:18 I dont care about the bloat 2009-03-18T21:08:40 Murmuria: bloat in what? 2009-03-18T21:08:52 oh oh Linux 2009-03-18T21:09:07 yeah, well, when you've got 300 friggin syscalls. 2009-03-18T21:09:07 thats just a reason for KillerX and thedoctor to act cool about glendix... I care about giving linux the functionallity advantage that Plan9 has... 2009-03-18T21:09:18 Murmuria: that's my primary goal. 2009-03-18T21:09:44 like I said, I think the bloat comes from the fact that 3000 people work on Linux, and most of them only as a minor part of their life. 2009-03-18T21:09:45 Plan 9 is nice because it has this generality, which alot of functionality just happens to fall out of. 2009-03-18T21:09:51 imo 2009-03-18T21:10:02 ya, different people have different motivess :P I had the ption to join Glendix a long long time ago, but I did it only now, cos I liked the ideas of /net 2009-03-18T21:10:51 stu8ball: right, and maybe I'm wrong here, but it's possibly easier to just narrow down your requisite understanding in Linux to just drivers if all you care about is getting your company's card to work with Linux. 2009-03-18T21:11:08 and I have more ideas, I am planning to work towards getting Glendix to run on routers.... if it is a sane enough idea 2009-03-18T21:11:21 you don't have to get the "big picture" 2009-03-18T21:11:21 yeah 2009-03-18T21:11:34 Murmuria: if that is good, you can go startup a company against Juniper, Cisco :D 2009-03-18T21:11:49 again, I don'tknow if you have to look at the majority of the Plan9 kernel to grok the driver model, but in Linux I know you don't. 2009-03-18T21:12:15 there are kthreads, syncronization primitives, but other than that, you just need to understand how to write a driver for linux, not Linux itself. 2009-03-18T21:12:18 aah, I dont care about that too, if I do what s in my head, I'll give it to glendix, then maybe codo, you can go against Cisco 2009-03-18T21:12:29 it's almost like writing a userspace program. The OS is just a black box. 2009-03-18T21:12:47 now, that definitely helps get more people involved since the barrier to entry is lower. 2009-03-18T21:13:29 codo: Lucent did a router with Inferno in it. 2009-03-18T21:13:32 but if you /want/ to get the big picture, you've got all these abstraction barriers and diverse codepaths and APIs, so that, while at a fine granularity the system looks simple, but in the big picture, it's chaotic 2009-03-18T21:13:43 anyway.. cool times these :) I just wish I was not so distracted with things... 2009-03-18T21:13:44 stu8ball: I didn't know. thanks for information. 2009-03-18T21:13:54 Murmuria: does Linux even run on things like Cisco hardware? 2009-03-18T21:14:17 I mean, putting Glendix on a bunch of boxes with tons of network cards and using /net would be pretty nice 2009-03-18T21:15:05 but I don't know how well that would work, since the packets still have to see TCP to work 2009-03-18T21:15:18 thedoctor: yes it does.. http://www.quagga.net/docs/quagga.html 2009-03-18T21:15:19 Title: http://www.quagga.net,Quagga (at www.quagga.net) 2009-03-18T21:15:20 so you'll need to have routing tables and algorithms alongside it 2009-03-18T21:15:52 they do it already using traditional Linux means 2009-03-18T21:16:02 plus there's all sorts of things like windowing, interface priority, load balancing, and flow control... hopefully Plan 9 addresses that better than Linux 2009-03-18T21:16:22 GNU Zebra was meant to give this functionality 2009-03-18T21:16:24 Murmuria: right, but I'm saying that Plan 9's /net doesn't seem to be rich enough to handle this on it's own. 2009-03-18T21:16:34 I am considering a filesystem for that routing table... (I think /proc/sys/net already has something like that?) 2009-03-18T21:16:50 Murmuria: true, but that's just something you get from your gateway. 2009-03-18T21:16:58 routing works a bit different. 2009-03-18T21:17:14 you have to send/rcv updates from many other routers, maintain paths, etc etc 2009-03-18T21:17:20 good, tell me more... 2009-03-18T21:17:27 I think a new filesystem would definitely work, btw 2009-03-18T21:17:31 I want to understand this properly 2009-03-18T21:17:47 ok, well, if I have router A, B, C, and D 2009-03-18T21:18:15 and A->B, A->C, B->D, and C->D, how do I pick which way to get from A->D? 2009-03-18T21:18:21 there are two paths. 2009-03-18T21:18:47 now, if we add another router on the other side of D, how do I get A to learn about it? 2009-03-18T21:18:56 thedoctor: new file system in user space or kernel space ? 2009-03-18T21:18:59 if B and C both tell A that A should use them, whom does A beleive? 2009-03-18T21:19:12 codo: all talk is kernel-space here 2009-03-18T21:19:37 actually, the higher-level things like load-balancing, updating, could be entirely userspace. 2009-03-18T21:19:43 and probably should, for security reasons. 2009-03-18T21:19:51 thedoctor: so a classic routing issue... I am guessing the ripd or the ospfd in that quagga application does that decission making 2009-03-18T21:19:57 the FS will be an interface to whatever kernel-level tweaks 2009-03-18T21:20:13 Murmuria: RIP and OSPF are just two protocols, though 2009-03-18T21:20:26 There GRP, IGRP, EIGRP, BGP, the list goes on 2009-03-18T21:20:33 exactly!!! 2009-03-18T21:21:00 and each one has their own benefits and problems. 2009-03-18T21:21:00 now see this... implementing those on Quagga is a BIG deal.. it takes time 2009-03-18T21:21:07 http://www.quagga.net/docs/quagga.html#SEC3 2009-03-18T21:21:08 Title: http://www.quagga.net,Quagga (at www.quagga.net) 2009-03-18T21:21:21 well, like I said, I can see an FS simplifying the management of these things pretty well 2009-03-18T21:21:21 if I expose that UNIX Kernel routing table as a FS 2009-03-18T21:21:33 Murmuria: there's more to it than that, I think 2009-03-18T21:21:52 good, tell me tell me... 2009-03-18T21:21:54 you'll need per-interface routing tables 2009-03-18T21:22:12 as an option. 2009-03-18T21:22:30 IOS lets you be very fine-grained if you want. 2009-03-18T21:22:48 since routers have no state, you have to be able to make each interface invisible to the rest if you really wanted. 2009-03-18T21:23:16 Murmuria: you can pick up Cisco's CCNA books 2009-03-18T21:23:26 they're big and long, but if you want to get into this, you should read them. 2009-03-18T21:23:48 there's also more past CCNA, but that's what I took, and it gives you some insight into how all these things fit together. 2009-03-18T21:24:13 it's been too long for me to remember enough to paint you a big or accurate enough picture of this undertaking. 2009-03-18T21:24:13 I have a friend doing CCNA... 2009-03-18T21:24:29 well, if you can spare a year, you should take it. 2009-03-18T21:24:44 but see, what do you mean by per-interface table? 2009-03-18T21:24:45 (actually, I think it's 2 years... I took an accelerated version) 2009-03-18T21:25:05 Murmuria: I mean that eth0 has a routing table that may not be the same as eth1's 2009-03-18T21:25:20 where eth{0,1} are separate network interfaces. 2009-03-18T21:25:34 because maybe eth0 isn't allowed or wanted to talk to eth1 2009-03-18T21:25:51 or some machines that connect to eth0 aren't allowed to see routes to eth1 2009-03-18T21:25:56 and vice versa. 2009-03-18T21:26:21 and you'll understand, I'm sure, that managing this all with blacklists is not as good as just having each interface able to hide from the other 2009-03-18T21:26:30 the less data you need to know and keep track of, the better. 2009-03-18T21:26:39 as long as you can still do the tasks you need to. 2009-03-18T21:28:00 well, all of this is fine... I expected to face these issues... but Quagga have claimed to have handled it well enough... using oldfashion methods... 2009-03-18T21:28:15 well, I'm sure it works. 2009-03-18T21:28:31 but if you start from scratch now, I think you could do better. 2009-03-18T21:28:43 yes, that is the plan 2009-03-18T21:28:46 I don't like that diagram you sent, with everything sitting on top of the Unix routing table. 2009-03-18T21:28:50 I really think that's a bad idea. 2009-03-18T21:29:03 more at stake if someome compromised something. 2009-03-18T21:29:11 mroe awesome :) I have more reasons to go against Quagga 2009-03-18T21:29:26 in IOS, there are passwords and information-hiding (as I said), down to a per-interface leve. 2009-03-18T21:29:51 have you looked into JUNOS too? thedoctor 2009-03-18T21:30:01 you can state, e.g., that in IOS, if you even allow someone to log in on a port that is not the local monitoring port, that they can only configure the interface they came in on. 2009-03-18T21:30:10 and not even see that the machine has other interfaces. 2009-03-18T21:30:12 IIRC. 2009-03-18T21:30:15 thedoctor: I always thought linux is security compared to Windows as in Viruses. But now I know Linux didn't get it's security right :) 2009-03-18T21:30:21 no, I haven't looked at JUNOS 2009-03-18T21:30:21 after reading ganti's paper. 2009-03-18T21:30:43 codo: Linux and Windows both have a super-user. 2009-03-18T21:31:05 the reason linux faired better is because you don't run as the superuser in Linux, whereas you do in Winblows. 2009-03-18T21:31:25 yeah got it. so plan9 doesnt use this super-user functionality ? 2009-03-18T21:31:30 nope. 2009-03-18T21:31:37 there's a host-owner, but that's different. 2009-03-18T21:32:03 even the host-owner can't look at or delete another person's files. 2009-03-18T21:32:33 so if the host-owner wants to access some important system resource files, how does it go about achieving that ? 2009-03-18T21:32:38 user space system calls ? 2009-03-18T21:32:48 codo: ? 2009-03-18T21:32:53 what are 'user space system calls'? 2009-03-18T21:33:06 aren't all system calls, from user space? 2009-03-18T21:33:13 we have filesystems to represent all resources 2009-03-18T21:33:51 and any user can access any resources, provided he has accvess to that fileserver 2009-03-18T21:33:51 well space transitions need to happen right ? 2009-03-18T21:34:00 who gives permission to go into kernel space from the user space ? 2009-03-18T21:34:17 ok so it is the file server 2009-03-18T21:34:18 i get it now. 2009-03-18T21:34:25 er, you are really confused 2009-03-18T21:34:40 read the papers (and read some basic docs on operating system designs) 2009-03-18T21:34:41 ok, please enlighten me. :) 2009-03-18T21:34:52 ok will do. 2009-03-18T21:35:03 I'm too busy to do that, but reading either nemo's book on the plan9 kernel or even the Lion's book will do 2009-03-18T21:35:13 is it online free ? 2009-03-18T21:36:15 yes 2009-03-18T21:36:33 thedoctor: bringing us back... /net/ether0/routingtable or something like that is a good idea? 2009-03-18T21:36:49 uriel: got some via google, thanks. Will read. 2009-03-18T21:37:17 Murmuria: yeah, sounds good 2009-03-18T21:37:29 basically, you want to be able to make things as fine-grained as possible. 2009-03-18T21:38:09 but at the same time, if you *don't* want to be fine-grained, you need that option. 2009-03-18T21:38:25 pro.. I know what I am working on this summer 2009-03-18T21:38:26 e.g., if you want to go crazy, 2009-03-18T21:38:34 /net/ether0/routingtables/ 2009-03-18T21:38:48 and you import other computer's routing tables or something under that directory. 2009-03-18T21:39:12 I don't know if that's good or bad, but it's yet another way of doing things. 2009-03-18T21:40:11 ok, lets see, we'll look into it later... I really need to get more work done on my /net 2009-03-18T21:40:27 its gone no where since the first and last commit! 2009-03-18T21:40:34 yeah. 2009-03-18T21:45:15 hmm I never read this Lion's book or the plan9 kernel book, sheez! 2009-03-18T22:02:59 Murmuria: I kinda just thought of something for your router deal. 2009-03-18T22:03:18 try writing down everything a router does and everything a router has to know to do it. 2009-03-18T22:03:33 put things in boxes if they belong together. 2009-03-18T22:03:59 once you've got all the concepts down on paper a few different ways, you should be staring at the filesystem you want to make. 2009-03-18T22:05:34 thedoctor: sounds good... but I did not plan to have everything under that FS... I planned to have just the table... and then write something in userspace for the various protocols... 2009-03-18T22:06:16 that way I keep the kernel "protocol-agnostic" as urie..l wanted it... :) 2009-03-18T22:07:08 I like your idea 2009-03-18T22:07:54 it will help even more, if I have to do things the way I plan... I will look into it later... 2009-03-18T22:09:26 the reason I have been wrking out a better way to implement new routing protocols is cos I have a new one in my mind... 2009-03-18T22:09:36 I am currently working on a new routing protocol... 2009-03-18T22:09:43 not much done yet on it 2009-03-18T22:10:18 but once I evaluate that what I am trying to achieve is indeed new and required, and I have a design in mind, I will need a good way to test it 2009-03-18T22:10:41 what better than a simple script that hacks on the routing table under that FS! 2009-03-18T22:10:58 I can use a test network here at my university for this 2009-03-18T22:13:51 Murmuria: I think you could get away with doing the routing table in userspace. 2009-03-18T22:14:11 one fs for all of the router stuff would probably work. 2009-03-18T22:15:44 well, the point is which way is best... I know how to use libfs now so I dont fear kernel-space.... I will need to look into more aspects before decding upon where to put the code in 2009-03-18T22:16:07 Murmuria: I would say keep any new things out of netfs 2009-03-18T22:16:33 aim for perfect plan 9 compatibility, then we can start collecting ideas and decide where to put them. 2009-03-18T22:16:43 but I think we could toss everything in a userspace routerfs 2009-03-18T22:17:08 "routingtable", bleh..... call it rtab, to be more consistent wiith fstab, mtab, the oldfangled inittab ad so on! :P 2009-03-18T22:17:08 stu8ball: brilliant! 2009-03-18T22:17:08 heh 2009-03-18T22:17:23 I always wanted a new .*tab 2009-03-18T22:18:12 eh.. 2009-03-18T22:18:49 anyway... its fun to build ideas... castles on clouds ... 2009-03-18T22:19:47 I am so happy Linus Torvalds like people dont flock on #glendix :P 2009-03-18T22:19:59 "Talk is cheap...." 2009-03-18T22:20:09 haha 2009-03-18T22:20:19 time to go home 2009-03-18T22:20:22 laters... 2009-03-18T22:20:27 peace 2009-03-18T22:20:28 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-18T22:23:11 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T22:34:34 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-18T23:15:11 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-18T23:22:41 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-18T23:26:27 where is this channel logs available ? 2009-03-18T23:26:32 s/is/are 2009-03-18T23:34:12 i don't think so 2009-03-18T23:57:35 Topic says otherwise. 2009-03-19T00:02:01 codo: have to ask Anant when he gets back from wherever he is. 2009-03-19T00:25:58 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T00:26:04 the alps I think 2009-03-19T00:28:15 lucky bastard 2009-03-19T00:28:30 hey, it takes a while to format a 1.5 terabyte drive. 2009-03-19T00:33:52 *** codo__ has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T00:38:01 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-19T00:45:18 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-19T01:05:40 :O 2009-03-19T01:05:47 *** codo__ is now known as codo 2009-03-19T01:05:53 anant and alps 2009-03-19T01:05:55 sheez 2009-03-19T01:17:11 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T01:28:51 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-19T01:54:11 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-19T04:30:48 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-19T04:34:11 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T05:14:54 olegfink: do you mirror the p9p abaco? 2009-03-19T05:21:43 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T05:57:48 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-19T07:50:34 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T07:58:44 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-19T07:58:48 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-19T09:49:41 *** olegfink has quit IRC 2009-03-19T09:53:55 *** olegfink has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T12:47:06 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T13:00:47 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-19T14:36:35 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-19T14:54:54 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-19T15:04:29 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T16:03:42 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-19T16:13:13 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T16:58:06 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-19T17:30:42 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T17:51:03 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T18:07:05 thedoctor: I do, at http://rain.ifmo.ru/~olegfink/abaco-p9p.tgz 2009-03-19T18:07:22 I'll ask fgb to update the link when he's online. 2009-03-19T18:07:40 aha, thanks 2009-03-19T18:33:17 hm, 9l says "cannot find -lthread" 2009-03-19T18:58:12 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-19T19:11:31 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T19:11:41 why do all window managers suck? 2009-03-19T19:20:59 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-19T19:22:51 thedoctor: because they don't manage windows? 2009-03-19T19:23:16 olegfink: probably something like that. 2009-03-19T19:23:33 and if it's not that it's that they just don't do everything right. 2009-03-19T19:23:46 that's an old but unfortunately still actual pun. 2009-03-19T19:23:55 well, ok, so I was using ratpoison, but I don't *always* want tiling 2009-03-19T19:24:12 that also rules out wmii, which is so broken anyway it's not worth using. 2009-03-19T19:24:35 so then I used awesome, tiling and floating. Well, it's configured with lua and they break the API every five seconds. 2009-03-19T19:24:39 ok, so now I'm using rio. 2009-03-19T19:24:44 I have a statusbar with dzen 2009-03-19T19:24:54 but rio sucks, too. 2009-03-19T19:25:15 i find dwm satisfying in a sense that it doesn't even try to do anything sensible 2009-03-19T19:25:17 I can't cycle through windows, there's no global list I can grab 2009-03-19T19:25:37 olegfink: yeah, I'd rather not have to write my own wm on top of dwm, though 2009-03-19T19:26:37 it lets my windows float around... or even tile sometimes. 2009-03-19T19:27:20 I suppose rio would be better if there were a way to get a windowlist I could select from. 2009-03-19T19:27:33 and an rc file to run things from on startup. 2009-03-19T19:27:48 and a box I could access with the keyboard to run commands from. 2009-03-19T19:27:56 rio is strictly NOT a window _manager_ 2009-03-19T19:28:17 it's a input/output multiplexer 2009-03-19T19:28:25 p9p rio does pretty well at being one. 2009-03-19T19:28:30 aside from those little problems... 2009-03-19T19:28:43 i failed to see p9p's rio usable 2009-03-19T19:28:54 it's really not bad. 2009-03-19T19:29:00 aside from what I mentioned. 2009-03-19T19:29:06 what ruins it for you? 2009-03-19T19:29:48 too many mousework for what I usually need an x11 wm for. 2009-03-19T19:30:00 yeah. no keyboard shortcuts. 2009-03-19T19:30:08 (in fact it's acme + a few xterms + opera) 2009-03-19T19:30:08 it's why using acme drives me up a wall. 2009-03-19T19:30:31 acme is okay, because it's about text which is handy to edit with a mouse 2009-03-19T19:30:31 wow, if you like keyboard stuff, how can you stand to use acme? 2009-03-19T19:30:49 ehh. I get whiplash switching back and forth with acme. 2009-03-19T19:31:23 sometimes, I really just want to say, go down 5 lines, and that's faster with a keyboard... Rob Pike is a little off on that point. 2009-03-19T19:31:37 you know, dwm has one absolutely awesome side-effect. given one window in the current view in tiling mode (or in the new shiny monocle mode), it maximizes it automatically. 2009-03-19T19:32:06 that's how I mostly use it, and that's exactly why rio fails for me. 2009-03-19T19:32:20 (my laptop has 14" 1024x768 screen) 2009-03-19T19:32:27 yeah, I like tiling on a small screen. 2009-03-19T19:32:40 but I have a 15in laptop hooked up to a 26" external. 2009-03-19T19:32:50 tiling breaks down when there's that much free space. 2009-03-19T19:34:43 i don't know about movement commands, maybe it's that the first editor I learned past 'how to insert text' was acme. 2009-03-19T19:35:16 olegfink: I could use acme if it had a metamode 2009-03-19T19:35:24 nowadays many text editing (and especially processing) stuff is easier for me in acme than in vi with movement or in emacs with macros 2009-03-19T19:35:45 olegfink: I have vim, which supports mice. 2009-03-19T19:36:17 so I can use a mouse when I find it to be easier than thinking up a movement command. 2009-03-19T19:36:18 but it probably lacks structural regexps and chroding. 2009-03-19T19:36:22 chroding, even 2009-03-19T19:36:33 whoops. 2009-03-19T19:36:45 now you see why i prefer mouse to keyboard :/ 2009-03-19T19:36:46 no need for chording. 2009-03-19T19:37:16 once I select it, I can run a regex on it, execute it, run it through an external filter, whatever. 2009-03-19T19:37:33 hmm, can someone *please* explain me wtf is abaco/abaco/ in my tarball? 2009-03-19T19:37:50 ah 2009-03-19T19:38:00 um, shouldn't *you* know that? 2009-03-19T19:38:14 it was just a clever choice of naming. 2009-03-19T19:39:37 thedoctor: does it build for you? 2009-03-19T19:40:04 no, actually, linking failed because 9l couldn't find -lthread. 2009-03-19T19:40:16 hmm 2009-03-19T19:40:21 but I think that may be my fault, I don't know if my p9p is sane. 2009-03-19T19:40:23 9l -o o.abaco cols.o exec.o html.o main.o page.o rows.o scrl.o tabs.o text.o time.o urls.o util.o wind.o 2009-03-19T19:40:26 I'm using gentoo's 2009-03-19T19:40:31 it probably isn't 2009-03-19T19:41:16 yeah, it's 9l, looking at th shell script, it automagically add -lthread to the command line. 2009-03-19T19:43:19 do you have $PLAN9/lib/libthread.a? 2009-03-19T19:43:40 nope. 2009-03-19T19:43:58 I don't even know if I properly updated it. 2009-03-19T19:44:03 (or really how you do at all) 2009-03-19T19:44:41 cvs update; mk install 2009-03-19T19:44:50 hm 2009-03-19T19:44:57 well, I'll get to it at a later date. 2009-03-19T19:45:10 I've got to go to work soon, then class, then drive 3 hours to go home.... 2009-03-19T19:46:12 heh, evening here, preparing to tommorows seminar 2009-03-19T19:51:19 I have to write a talk this weekend on debugging techniques 2009-03-19T19:56:28 I guess I just have to fight with awesome until I can get my config back... 2009-03-19T19:58:38 awesome is :-(. 2009-03-19T19:58:53 too much configurability, too little sense. 2009-03-19T19:59:12 olegfink: at least you can get it to do what you want. 2009-03-19T19:59:19 although I suppose dwm is the same way. 2009-03-19T19:59:29 but I like being able to modify awesome without recompiling it. 2009-03-19T19:59:39 this latter part seems to be my main problem with computing. 2009-03-19T19:59:54 how do you mean? 2009-03-19T19:59:55 i don't want the wm to do something 2009-03-19T20:00:22 it should just... do what I expect to be most natural :-) 2009-03-19T20:00:33 well, then, it's doing "something" 2009-03-19T20:00:39 it's just not getting in your way. 2009-03-19T20:02:22 that probably has to do with the 'sane defaults' rule. 2009-03-19T20:02:28 yeah 2009-03-19T20:02:41 see, I haven't found one that's sane "for me" 2009-03-19T20:02:48 it's like my problem with Acme. 2009-03-19T20:02:48 i've never been in the popular 'personalize to hell' camp 2009-03-19T20:03:01 ha, if I can't get it to work my way, I get pissed. 2009-03-19T20:03:11 I'm sure Acme works great for Rob, because he wrote it. 2009-03-19T20:03:28 but I can't use it. I can understand why it's good, and I do like some of the ideas. 2009-03-19T20:03:35 but using it drives me up a wall 2009-03-19T20:03:45 the bottom line? write you own :-) 2009-03-19T20:03:56 olegfink: I don't have time. 2009-03-19T20:04:12 but at least awesome is built so that the config is literally rewriting the wm. 2009-03-19T20:04:27 look at xmonad, where config is th wm itself. 2009-03-19T20:04:33 the, even 2009-03-19T20:04:35 xmonad is tiling. 2009-03-19T20:05:05 it's pretty much everything you implement, actually. 2009-03-19T20:05:21 don't have time to learn haskell, either. 2009-03-19T20:05:22 in acme/rio, the 'config' also rewrites the whole thing. it's just called the source :-) 2009-03-19T20:05:24 maybe when I do have time. 2009-03-19T20:05:34 heh. well, I'd rather not add modes to acme. 2009-03-19T20:05:43 I can just use Vim, which works well for me. 2009-03-19T20:06:11 I noticed in an interview, Rob Pike said the only thing that bothered him about vi at the time he used it was that it didn't have any mouse support. 2009-03-19T20:06:28 see, when I have no time, I use something existing. otherwise... see, everything sucks, starting from hardware to compilers to OSes to programs... too much to reimplement. 2009-03-19T20:06:32 but I think he kind of threw out the baby with the bathwater 2009-03-19T20:07:07 like I said, vim works fine for me, the only thing I can't really stand is the lack of a windowmanager that works for me. 2009-03-19T20:15:45 SWEET. 2009-03-19T20:15:51 I got it to work. 2009-03-19T20:15:52 finally. 2009-03-19T20:30:45 abaco? 2009-03-19T20:34:36 no, awesome. 2009-03-19T20:34:39 anyhow, gotta split 2009-03-19T20:34:41 take care 2009-03-19T20:34:54 have fun 2009-03-19T20:54:29 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-19T21:00:53 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T22:32:25 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-19T22:38:49 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T23:12:11 *** thedocto1 has joined #glendix 2009-03-19T23:19:15 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-20T00:34:37 *** thedocto1 has quit IRC 2009-03-20T02:09:55 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-20T05:43:41 *** Murmuria1 has joined #glendix 2009-03-20T05:55:59 *** Murmuria1 has quit IRC 2009-03-20T06:03:27 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-20T13:22:40 *** Karurosu has quit IRC 2009-03-20T13:23:23 *** Karurosu has joined #glendix 2009-03-20T15:42:56 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-20T18:17:18 *** proq has quit IRC 2009-03-20T20:08:12 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-20T21:37:59 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-20T22:29:11 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-21T02:07:02 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-21T03:03:53 uriel, jyujin_, found out if lh from gsoc group has any comments for us? 2009-03-21T03:04:27 uriel, (on an unrelated note) what did Plan9 change this year to get selected? 2009-03-21T04:53:55 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-21T06:29:53 *** bsb has joined #glendix 2009-03-21T07:08:36 *** bsb is now known as codo 2009-03-21T07:34:23 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-21T10:24:00 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-21T10:24:32 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-21T17:32:32 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-21T17:39:51 *** thedocto1 has joined #glendix 2009-03-21T17:41:59 *** Karurosu has quit IRC 2009-03-21T17:45:41 *** Karurosu_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-21T17:46:20 *** Karurosu_ is now known as Karurosu 2009-03-21T17:53:06 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-21T19:40:48 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-21T22:42:47 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-21T22:43:04 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T03:23:33 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T04:50:30 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-22T11:18:00 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T11:39:15 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-22T12:44:14 *** KillerX has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T13:16:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o KillerX 2009-03-22T13:17:21 This Channel is Logged || A port of Plan 9's userspace to Linux || Apply for our GSoC ideas under the Plan 9 organisation! (http://glendix.org/gsoc) || http://groups.google.com/group/glendix || Thanks jyujin and kyuba for hosting us :) 2009-03-22T13:17:22 Title: Glendix: Bringing the beauty of Plan 9 to Linux (at glendix.org) 2009-03-22T13:17:32 *** KillerX changes topic to "This Channel is Logged || A port of Plan 9's userspace to Linux || Apply for our GSoC ideas under the Plan 9 organisation! (http://glendix.org/gsoc) || http://groups.google.com/group/glendix || Thanks jyujin and kyuba for hosting us" 2009-03-22T13:17:42 *** KillerX sets mode: -o KillerX 2009-03-22T15:07:52 *** dagle has quit IRC 2009-03-22T15:31:48 *** KillerX has quit IRC 2009-03-22T15:53:38 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T15:59:19 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-22T16:58:17 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T17:05:37 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-22T17:05:49 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T17:10:56 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-22T17:25:37 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T17:39:30 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-22T18:14:59 *** codo__ has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T18:32:33 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-22T18:40:03 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T18:50:27 Glenda`, whoami ? 2009-03-22T18:50:27 Murmuria: (whoami takes no arguments) -- Returns the name of the user calling the command. 2009-03-22T18:50:41 !whoami 2009-03-22T18:50:41 Murmuria: Murmuria 2009-03-22T18:53:15 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T18:55:33 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-22T18:55:46 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T19:04:11 *** codo__ has quit IRC 2009-03-22T19:37:29 *** Karurosu has quit IRC 2009-03-22T19:44:00 *** Karurosu has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T20:05:05 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-22T20:05:12 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T22:58:47 *** codo___ has joined #glendix 2009-03-22T23:12:58 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-23T02:24:36 *** Karurosu has quit IRC 2009-03-23T04:01:50 *** thedocto1 has quit IRC 2009-03-23T04:10:12 *** Karurosu has joined #glendix 2009-03-23T04:21:44 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-23T04:28:15 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-23T04:37:08 *** codo___ has quit IRC 2009-03-23T04:52:04 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-23T05:22:07 *** Murmuria1 has joined #glendix 2009-03-23T05:40:09 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-23T11:56:46 *** jyujin_ has quit IRC 2009-03-23T11:57:24 *** jyujin_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-23T12:54:52 *** KillerX has joined #glendix 2009-03-23T16:00:08 *** Murmuria1 has quit IRC 2009-03-23T16:01:25 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-23T19:37:22 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-23T20:10:34 *** KillerX has quit IRC 2009-03-23T21:35:08 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-23T21:36:28 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T02:54:05 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-24T02:59:02 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T03:34:02 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-24T03:49:49 *** Karurosu_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T03:53:50 *** olegfink has quit IRC 2009-03-24T04:04:35 *** olegfink has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T04:07:57 *** Karurosu has quit IRC 2009-03-24T06:21:58 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T07:34:51 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T07:35:21 did anyone read Henry Huang's email on the mailing list? 2009-03-24T07:35:58 jyujin_, uriel? http://groups.google.com/group/glendix/browse_thread/thread/1dd59853001fd728 2009-03-24T07:35:59 Title: about "Create a skeletal Distribution" - glendix | Google Groups (at groups.google.com) 2009-03-24T07:36:10 He is asking for nothing in return 2009-03-24T07:36:22 Murmuria: I read it. 2009-03-24T07:36:23 We should let him aboard 2009-03-24T07:36:44 but there is no reply to that thread from Anant :-| 2009-03-24T07:36:51 maybe he is busy... 2009-03-24T07:36:55 hmm. 2009-03-24T09:02:45 *** mib_7o8n95x4 has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T09:03:34 *** mib_7o8n95x4 has left #glendix 2009-03-24T09:05:23 *** mib_ligedf3o has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T09:08:59 *** KillerX has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T09:20:48 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T09:33:22 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-24T09:36:21 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-24T09:49:52 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T10:01:53 *** codo_ has quit IRC 2009-03-24T10:38:41 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T10:42:15 *** glenker_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T10:44:30 Hi everyone, I just want to check. There is no stipend of 4500 USD for working on glendix 2009-03-24T10:47:13 glenker_: If you apply via Plan 9, there will be 2009-03-24T10:47:32 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T10:47:43 Plan 9 is a GSoC mentoring organisation and is accepting proposals for Glendix related ideas 2009-03-24T10:49:01 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T10:49:13 oh ok 2009-03-24T10:49:32 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T10:50:22 I guess this would be a good place to ask this: What exactly does glendix intend on contributing to the Linux userland? 2009-03-24T10:50:30 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T10:50:36 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T10:50:42 the website mentions hard work and research 2009-03-24T10:51:06 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T10:51:17 :) 2009-03-24T10:51:24 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T10:51:47 glenker_: we're not contributing to the linux userland, but rather the kernel 2009-03-24T10:51:57 adding the ability for it to handle a Plan 9 userland 2009-03-24T10:52:26 oh ok, that sounds a lot more interesting 2009-03-24T10:52:27 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T10:52:28 the end result is a distro where we strip out the GNU parts and replace them with Plan 9 equivalents, let's call it a `Plan9/Linux' distro? 2009-03-24T10:52:38 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T10:53:00 our ideas page: http://www.glendix.org/gsoc/ 2009-03-24T10:53:01 Title: Glendix: Bringing the beauty of Plan 9 to Linux (at www.glendix.org) 2009-03-24T10:53:20 yeah, I have that page open right now 2009-03-24T10:53:24 feel free to poke us on IRC or the google groups for more info on any of those ideas 2009-03-24T10:53:39 aic, you named your bot glenda 2009-03-24T10:53:47 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T10:53:52 indeed 2009-03-24T10:54:04 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T10:56:22 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T10:58:02 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T11:13:22 *** mib_ligedf3o has quit IRC 2009-03-24T11:16:32 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T11:16:39 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T11:18:26 interesting, one of gentoo's ideas is getting someone to package glendix for gentoo 2009-03-24T11:18:32 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T11:19:10 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T11:22:21 yep 2009-03-24T11:22:45 for that particular idea you can submit to either Plan 9 or Gentoo, or both ;) 2009-03-24T11:23:22 it's not so much of 'packaging' as it is building a distro based on gentoo 2009-03-24T11:25:55 *** codo_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T11:38:36 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-24T12:38:19 *** codo_ is now known as codo 2009-03-24T12:51:32 *** HenryHuang has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T12:56:48 *** HenryHuang has quit IRC 2009-03-24T13:17:06 *** HenryHuang has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T13:18:22 i am confused at the patches in the directory patches/ 2009-03-24T13:19:13 the patch specification seems not very correct, should be modified by myself 2009-03-24T13:49:34 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-24T13:53:17 hey HenryHuang 2009-03-24T13:53:23 patch -p1 should work fine 2009-03-24T13:53:43 you need a trunk linux 2009-03-24T13:56:03 i found in glendix_syscall.patch -- /usr/src/... -- this header is not standard 2009-03-24T13:56:04 and Linux Version should be 2.6.28,right? 2009-03-24T13:56:08 i have used 2.6.27 and 2.6.29, could not patch successfully 2009-03-24T13:56:24 :) 2009-03-24T13:56:27 ignore the syscall patch for now 2009-03-24T13:56:32 got the loader working? 2009-03-24T13:57:14 HenryHuang: which header in the syscall patch is not standard? 2009-03-24T13:58:15 i remove the non-standard header, and patch successfully in kernel-version 2.6.28.6 2009-03-24T13:58:15 yeah 2009-03-24T13:58:21 "/usr/src/..." ? 2009-03-24T13:58:52 --- /usr/src/linux-2.6.28-rc6/arch/x86/kernel/entry_32.S 2008-12-01 20:06:11.000000000 +0530 2009-03-24T13:58:52 +++ arch/x86/kernel/entry_32.S 2008-12-02 16:44:50.000000000 +0530 2009-03-24T14:02:25 --- fs/Kconfig.binfmt 2008-12-06 15:41:41.000000000 +0100 2009-03-24T14:02:25 +++ ../git/fs/Kconfig.binfmt 2008-12-06 15:47:37.000000000 +0100 2009-03-24T14:02:49 "../git/" in glendix_loader.patch 2009-03-24T14:04:06 ah maybe I patched it wrongly :) 2009-03-24T14:04:31 as an alternative you can also copy stuff inside arch/ and fs/ to the linux sources 2009-03-24T14:04:37 you should be good to go either way 2009-03-24T14:05:26 ok, i make it work right now :) 2009-03-24T14:07:08 awesome :) 2009-03-24T14:08:07 HenryHuang: BTW for the final GSoC project we will be working with Linux 2.6.24 2009-03-24T14:08:26 because there is a regression bug with later version that makes the loader not work 2009-03-24T14:08:36 specifically, it's a problem with set_system_gate 2009-03-24T14:09:10 oh, yeah, i see 2009-03-24T14:13:56 actually i have no experience on kernel-hacking, will it be difficult for me to deal with the "Create a skeletal Distribution" project 2009-03-24T14:16:01 HenryHuang: You don't need to have any kernel hacking skills 2009-03-24T14:16:19 Though you must have enough knowledge on how the kernel is compiled 2009-03-24T14:16:30 how the different parts of a linux based operating system fit together 2009-03-24T14:16:36 you will not be expected to change any kernel code 2009-03-24T14:18:21 mm, sounds great! but i think i might try it any time :) 2009-03-24T14:18:44 HenryHuang: look forward to seeing your proposal ;) 2009-03-24T14:19:38 thank you, i will submit the proposal as soon as possible 2009-03-24T14:19:49 cool, all the best! 2009-03-24T14:20:11 :) 2009-03-24T15:09:29 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T15:11:22 ping! 2009-03-24T15:11:45 thedoctor! 2009-03-24T15:11:49 been a while 2009-03-24T15:16:23 yeah 2009-03-24T15:16:27 how was your trip? 2009-03-24T15:17:50 fantastic, to say the least 2009-03-24T15:17:58 first time snowboarding is something... 2009-03-24T15:18:01 heh 2009-03-24T15:18:11 I was busy this weekend, so I didn't get to reply to your email 2009-03-24T15:18:19 no problemo 2009-03-24T15:18:25 do add the idea to the glendix ideas page though 2009-03-24T15:18:33 it is linked from the plan9 ideas page 2009-03-24T15:18:36 yeah, I'm going to now 2009-03-24T15:18:47 so (hopefully) there will be students looking at it 2009-03-24T15:19:11 No apps in so far... 2009-03-24T15:19:26 hm, so how do I edit this thing? 2009-03-24T15:20:09 ooh I think I found it. 2009-03-24T15:20:13 $EDITOR /var/www/glendix.org/htdocs/sites/www.glendix.org/gsoc/index.md 2009-03-24T15:20:16 it's markdown syntax 2009-03-24T15:20:31 you'll get an idea by looking at the rest of the file 2009-03-24T15:20:34 I can't write that file. 2009-03-24T15:21:06 thedoctor: try now? 2009-03-24T15:21:30 nope. 2009-03-24T15:21:40 hmm you are in the glendix group though? 2009-03-24T15:21:51 yep 2009-03-24T15:22:03 ah chmod g+w 2009-03-24T15:22:05 now? :) 2009-03-24T15:22:12 heh, that should work 2009-03-24T15:22:31 wtf? 2009-03-24T15:22:33 still no... 2009-03-24T15:22:51 oh, there we go. 2009-03-24T15:22:53 that was weird. 2009-03-24T15:23:03 :) 2009-03-24T15:28:47 how do you mark up a link? 2009-03-24T15:29:51 ah, nevermind 2009-03-24T15:31:26 what should the deliverable be? 2009-03-24T15:31:35 should they have to port rio to it? 2009-03-24T15:35:26 ok, I think I have an ok entry... would you mind proofreading it? 2009-03-24T15:50:42 *** HenryHuang has quit IRC 2009-03-24T16:00:26 hey, the link on the plan9 page is busted :P 2009-03-24T16:38:09 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-24T16:38:12 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T17:31:36 *** Karurosu_ is now known as Karurosu 2009-03-24T18:36:22 *** sarguru has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T19:01:27 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T19:02:01 sarguru, applying to Glendix? 2009-03-24T19:02:13 im thinking bout t 2009-03-24T19:02:35 cool :P 2009-03-24T19:02:37 but its not there in the list 2009-03-24T19:02:50 I thought you knew... 2009-03-24T19:03:00 are you not part of the Glendix Google group? 2009-03-24T19:03:01 yeah i know 2009-03-24T19:03:06 no 2009-03-24T19:03:59 but i can still apply through plan9 right 2009-03-24T19:04:34 sarguru: http://groups.google.com/group/glendix/browse_thread/thread/1dd59853001fd728/6e6a7b8e2cf33a49?hl=en#6e6a7b8e2cf33a49 2009-03-24T19:04:35 Title: about "Create a skeletal Distribution" - glendix | Google Groups (at groups.google.com) 2009-03-24T19:04:50 you can apply through Plan 9, or Gentoo, depending on your project idea 2009-03-24T19:07:54 im interested in that distribution creation idea 2009-03-24T19:10:17 do you think it will work out 2009-03-24T19:12:11 only you can answer that... check the Gentoo ideas page... get Glendix source code, and try deploying it on a virtual machine first 2009-03-24T19:12:42 and talk to Anant about it... 2009-03-24T19:13:22 k 2009-03-24T19:13:31 im trying to catch him 2009-03-24T19:13:34 but couldnt 2009-03-24T19:14:31 i checked out gentoos i was not much into anything over der 2009-03-24T19:21:45 sarguru, did I confuse you? sorry, I meant, the "skeletal distribution" idea can be applied through Gentoo Foundation too... I did not mean to misdirect you to the other project ideas they have there 2009-03-24T19:22:07 we are there right at the bottom 2009-03-24T19:25:11 *** ruyzaki has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T19:25:54 ruyzaki, welcome back! 2009-03-24T19:26:00 shashiburri! 2009-03-24T19:26:47 hey Murmuria 2009-03-24T19:27:39 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T19:29:00 *** sarguruuu has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T19:29:38 KillerX: any developments on Perprocess namespace ?? 2009-03-24T19:32:22 not to my knowledge 2009-03-24T19:32:33 thedoctor: hey .. 2009-03-24T19:35:22 hey 2009-03-24T19:35:59 *** sarguruuu is now known as sarguru 2009-03-24T19:54:29 *** sarguru has quit IRC 2009-03-24T21:26:56 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-24T22:42:50 ruyzaki: there are already per process namespaces 2009-03-24T22:42:55 why do people keep asking about this? 2009-03-24T23:14:18 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-24T23:14:31 *** ruyzaki has quit IRC 2009-03-24T23:31:07 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-24T23:39:44 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T00:14:42 *** olegfink has quit IRC 2009-03-25T00:18:43 *** olegfink has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T00:40:53 *** diegovio1a has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T00:40:54 hi 2009-03-25T00:40:57 hows glendix going? 2009-03-25T00:40:59 is it usable? 2009-03-25T00:41:22 is glendix going to be a distro, or it will be open for anyone to do and use the same? 2009-03-25T00:41:27 will changes to the kernel go mainline, etc? 2009-03-25T00:42:08 i would love to see mainline distros offering plan 9 userspace 2009-03-25T00:46:36 diegovio1a: some patches are on their way to mainline... 2009-03-25T00:46:45 it will probably take some time before all of it makes it in 2009-03-25T00:47:18 (some kind of task list + current status would be a nice addition to the glendix website, plus some more specific goals statement) 2009-03-25T00:48:27 very nice 2009-03-25T00:49:54 uriel, our GSoC page is sort of a detailed "Task List" I think 2009-03-25T00:56:39 Murmuria: it's not a "status" page. 2009-03-25T00:57:33 What uriel wants is the "we're talking to Christoph about the first round of patches and waiting on this bug before they can get in" 2009-03-25T00:58:22 it's a good idea 2009-03-25T00:58:31 we should work on it 2009-03-25T00:58:50 the front page does have a brief line on our status 2009-03-25T01:02:09 hmm, nice... 2009-03-25T01:06:39 *** KillerX has quit IRC 2009-03-25T01:15:09 *** diegovio1a has quit IRC 2009-03-25T01:15:22 *** diegoviola has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T01:16:37 i see, what are the advantages of the plan 9 userspace compared to the gnu/bsd counterparts, i know it's more modern, etc, but what about the features or advantages? 2009-03-25T01:31:31 diegoviola: everything is represented as a file. 2009-03-25T01:31:51 so you have a lot easier ways of doing things, like being able to do network programming in a few lines of shell scripts 2009-03-25T01:31:55 what does that means, there is no sockets, etc? 2009-03-25T01:32:00 nope, no sockets. 2009-03-25T01:32:10 also, all of these filesystems are network transparent. 2009-03-25T01:32:25 interesting... 2009-03-25T01:32:26 so I can talk to another computer's printer by network-mounting its /dev 2009-03-25T01:32:36 create a NAT by mounting its /net 2009-03-25T01:32:42 there is also no more super-user 2009-03-25T01:32:45 cool 2009-03-25T01:32:49 there's a much better authentication system 2009-03-25T01:32:59 those are a couple of the major things. 2009-03-25T01:33:02 That is beutiful. Plan 9 can do NAT, and yet, no-one, anywhere, ever, had to write anything NAT-specific. 2009-03-25T01:33:24 (Of course, it can only do NAT in that way, if the perimeter machien has a /net and speaks 9p :P) 2009-03-25T01:33:36 Epic dystypia. 2009-03-25T01:33:50 are all those things coming to linux with glendix? 2009-03-25T01:33:54 stu8ball: yeah. I really love the mounting devices thing, too. No more CUPS server, SMB server, Myth server, MPD server... blah blah blah 2009-03-25T01:34:01 doesn't the plan 9 kernel has improvements as well? 2009-03-25T01:34:01 diegoviola: hopefully they will 2009-03-25T01:34:37 the kernel is very small and straightforward. We don't really plan to address "bloat" or other certain design problems in the kernel 2009-03-25T01:34:56 we're aiming for doing what we have to in the kernel to support the higher level things. 2009-03-25T01:35:17 so it will still have some blemishes, but it will result in a much, much better Linux. 2009-03-25T01:35:28 nice 2009-03-25T01:58:39 *** leimy_ has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T02:13:42 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-25T02:15:00 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T02:40:28 *** henryhuang has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T02:49:13 anybody know where to find the log of messages in this channel ？ 2009-03-25T02:50:47 *** henry_huang has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T02:51:05 anybody know where to find the log of messages in this channel 2009-03-25T02:51:07 ? 2009-03-25T02:52:56 *** henryhuang has quit IRC 2009-03-25T03:09:36 Murmuria: not really, only tasks that make sense as gsoc tasks are in the gsoc page 2009-03-25T03:09:47 it is certainly not a comprensive list of things that have to be done 2009-03-25T03:10:11 touche 2009-03-25T03:14:09 *** leimy_ has quit IRC 2009-03-25T03:14:37 Murmuria: I think someone should just make a status page, or news page or something 2009-03-25T03:14:43 with the current status at the top. 2009-03-25T03:14:57 sounds good 2009-03-25T03:14:58 well, both a news and a tasks/status page make sense to me 2009-03-25T03:15:10 either way. 2009-03-25T03:15:31 things like: 'Per process namespaces: Already part of the linux kernel since 2.6.1', or whatever 2009-03-25T03:15:33 something that can show people both "what we're waiting on and up to now" and "what's been going on around here" are needed for a successful project 2009-03-25T03:15:41 ha, so people can stop bugging you about it. 2009-03-25T03:15:45 'Union bind/mounts: Planning stage' 2009-03-25T03:16:51 'Network stack file server (/net): Work in progress (by [whoever is working on it)' 2009-03-25T03:16:54 and so on 2009-03-25T03:28:20 if plan 9 doesn't use sockets and linux does, how are these things going to be sorted out? 2009-03-25T03:28:53 diegoviola: we make a filesystem that lets you do networking the plan 9 way 2009-03-25T03:29:01 i mean the differences 2009-03-25T03:29:02 then we can just ignore sockets 2009-03-25T03:29:10 nice 2009-03-25T03:29:18 but programs that have to use sockets will still work. 2009-03-25T03:29:49 so you can run firefox right next to plan 9 apps with no virtual machines involved or anything. 2009-03-25T03:31:24 nice 2009-03-25T03:33:42 even thought i like the gnu toolchain, i'd love to have a choice... and plan 9 seems to be nice 2009-03-25T03:36:57 *** leimy has quit IRC 2009-03-25T03:38:38 *** leimy has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T03:38:52 yeah, it is nice to have a choice. 2009-03-25T03:39:12 and hopefully, by giving people a choice, projects may switch to the plan 9 way of doing things. 2009-03-25T03:39:40 we can imagine something like a major webbrowser converting to using /net. It may be a vain hope, but it's possible. 2009-03-25T03:40:21 I'd love to have /net 2009-03-25T03:40:29 but /net without private namespaces seems scary 2009-03-25T03:40:43 leimy: that's why I worked to get 9pauth in staging. 2009-03-25T03:40:57 hopefully we can get rid of the root user and get namespaces working well 2009-03-25T03:41:11 That'd be so sweet :-) 2009-03-25T03:41:22 I'm honestly not sure where Glendix is status wise 2009-03-25T03:42:13 leimy: we're mostly waiting on getting this boot-time bug fixed, and then the initial commits can get into the kernel 2009-03-25T03:42:23 boot-time bug? 2009-03-25T03:42:32 sounds fascinating :-) 2009-03-25T03:42:39 I wish I had a lot of time. 2009-03-25T03:42:44 yeah, something blows up when we try to get a system call gate 2009-03-25T03:46:48 *** Karurosu has quit IRC 2009-03-25T03:47:01 *** Karurosu has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T03:49:59 glenker_, is Glen really your first name? 2009-03-25T03:54:47 yes, yes it is 2009-03-25T03:58:53 *** codo has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T04:01:47 my first name is "the" 2009-03-25T04:05:38 there is no root user in plan 9? 2009-03-25T04:06:20 no 2009-03-25T04:06:31 hm 2009-03-25T04:06:55 how do you handle permissions then? 2009-03-25T04:07:08 diegoviola: permissions work similarly. 2009-03-25T04:07:11 rwx 2009-03-25T04:07:17 ok 2009-03-25T04:07:20 there's just no one who can "snoop" on you 2009-03-25T04:07:51 yeah but does the user have access to everything on the system? 2009-03-25T04:07:53 hola thedoctor :) 2009-03-25T04:07:58 hi codo 2009-03-25T04:08:05 started work, hectic day :| 2009-03-25T04:08:29 diegoviola: there is this thing called the "hostowner" which is allowed to dole out permissions for things local to the machine. 2009-03-25T04:08:56 which is like root in that it can control access to hardware, but not like root in that it can not read other people's files, etc. 2009-03-25T04:09:00 codo: where are you working? 2009-03-25T04:09:36 thedoctor: i see, sounds interesting 2009-03-25T04:10:27 hostowner is just like any other user, it just happens to own the files in kernel file servers 2009-03-25T04:10:35 (more or less) 2009-03-25T04:10:57 whats the status of the plan 9 kernel, is not very finished yet right? i mean, the drivers, etc? 2009-03-25T04:10:58 or put another way, it 'owns' the hardware 2009-03-25T04:11:10 thedoctor: at a small company called digital broadcast. 2009-03-25T04:11:12 what is a finished kernel? 2009-03-25T04:11:20 uriel: has permissions to the hardware? 2009-03-25T04:11:43 i mean, the purpose of glendix is to use the linux kernel because of it's maturity and drivers right? 2009-03-25T04:11:46 thedoctor: the hardware is accessed via file server, so it owns the files .. 2009-03-25T04:11:47 if there ever is a finished kernel, it will mean that mankind has turned the entire universe into a computational substrate. 2009-03-25T04:12:06 uriel: ok, ok "permissions to the files representing the hardware" 2009-03-25T04:12:54 thedoctor: and again, there is nothing 'special' about those files, they also have rwx perms that the owner can (if allowed by the server) change 2009-03-25T04:12:57 why not just use plan 9 with it's own kernel, that's what i wanted to say 2009-03-25T04:13:37 because 99.9999% of the universe use other operating systems? 2009-03-25T04:13:37 uriel: I was trying a different paraphrase, not asking for an explanation 2009-03-25T04:13:47 ok, sorry 2009-03-25T04:13:51 * uriel needs sleep 2009-03-25T04:13:58 diegoviola: because we'd have to write thousands of drivers 2009-03-25T04:14:06 and port thousands of programs 2009-03-25T04:14:17 and then convince everyone to use it. 2009-03-25T04:14:59 uriel: you know sleepiness is a sign of this condition known as 'Caffenine Deprivation' 2009-03-25T04:15:05 my doctor told me about it. 2009-03-25T04:16:05 thedoctor: yep, i see 2009-03-25T04:16:25 i prefer the idea of linux and plan 9 2009-03-25T04:16:27 diegoviola: so if we get all this into Linux, we can kind of subvert everyone into using it. 2009-03-25T04:16:40 we get a big userbase, codemaintenance, and publicity for free 2009-03-25T04:16:41 i will use it for sure 2009-03-25T04:16:43 :) 2009-03-25T04:17:13 i have used the gnu toolchain for 8 years now... i'd like to try something else 2009-03-25T04:17:21 8c is nice. 2009-03-25T04:18:09 heh, I like how apparently no one bothered to port and include C++ in Plan 9's base install. 2009-03-25T04:18:19 I get the feeling not many people at Bell Labs like Bjarne. 2009-03-25T04:18:39 thedoctor: so you are against C++ :P ? 2009-03-25T04:18:48 thedoctor: you got the right feeling 2009-03-25T04:18:50 codo: it has some ok ideas, but it's kind of ugle 2009-03-25T04:19:03 thedoctor: right. It has a complicated syntax. 2009-03-25T04:19:11 uriel: it's so odd, too, because he mentions so many people at the labs helping him with the language and so on 2009-03-25T04:19:29 complicated syntax? what about the fucking *insane* *semantics*? 2009-03-25T04:19:37 how about undecidable grammar? 2009-03-25T04:19:39 fail. 2009-03-25T04:19:54 uriel: btw, when/how long did you work there? you sound like you were there for quite a while. 2009-03-25T04:19:55 uriel: thedoctor that too :) 2009-03-25T04:20:15 thedoctor: whats 8c? 2009-03-25T04:20:17 aren't they going to fix that sometime soon ? 2009-03-25T04:20:25 thedoctor: the most funny is that rob and bs really dislike eachother, and bs uses sam :) 2009-03-25T04:20:37 diegoviola: plan 9's x86 plan 9 c compiler 2009-03-25T04:20:56 uriel: yeah, I figured rob must not like him, and I had heard he uses sam 2009-03-25T04:20:57 nice, so you don't use gcc? 2009-03-25T04:21:03 god no. 2009-03-25T04:21:13 not if you're on plan 9. 2009-03-25T04:21:15 thedoctor: I never worked at the labs, I just know some people that spent time there, and I have quite a bit of interest in the place 2009-03-25T04:21:26 (I have been a couple of times there myself, 2009-03-25T04:21:28 ) 2009-03-25T04:21:41 wow. you've sounded awfuly nostalgic about it sometimes :P 2009-03-25T04:21:47 Where do they get funds from ? 2009-03-25T04:21:48 thedoctor: so on linux/plan9 we will have to use 8c to compile plan9 userspace tools and gcc for everything else? 2009-03-25T04:21:49 lucent ? 2009-03-25T04:22:11 diegoviola: no, in theory, either should compile the other. 2009-03-25T04:22:27 diegoviola: didn't you just complain about the gnu toolchain? wtf would be the point of using plan9 if you geto the same crap compiler and shit as gnu? 2009-03-25T04:22:53 uriel: maybe his programs compile too fast? 2009-03-25T04:22:55 uriel: i don't think i complained about the gnu toolchain, just said that i used it for a while... and that i like it :p 2009-03-25T04:23:00 uriel: but i'm open to try new things 2009-03-25T04:23:01 or he wants to stress-test his computer. 2009-03-25T04:23:22 thedoctor: I am nostalgic, I used to dream of working there when I was a kid, but the whole place has been going downhill for many years now... *sigh* 2009-03-25T04:23:30 yeah. 2009-03-25T04:23:49 mortals like me can never dream of setting foot inside that famous place :P 2009-03-25T04:24:21 I talked with jmk about working there, but apparently they're so disorganized, they told him to put out offers for co-ops and then told him that there were no openings. 2009-03-25T04:24:24 d'oh 2009-03-25T04:25:31 management has always been a clusterfuck, but back in the old days at least they had enough money to allow the smart people to do whatever the fuck they wanted 2009-03-25T04:26:50 uriel: management suckage sounds par for the course 2009-03-25T04:27:01 thedoctor: btw, speaking of bs, do you know the fake interview with him: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/I_did_it_for_you_all 2009-03-25T04:27:02 Title: software - c++ - I did it for you all | cat -v harmful stuff (at harmful.cat-v.org) 2009-03-25T04:27:09 oh man, that is *so* funny 2009-03-25T04:27:16 wasn't Rob involved with that? 2009-03-25T04:27:37 I'm not sure about rob, but I do know at least one of the authors, who used to work at the labs for a long time 2009-03-25T04:27:45 (sorry, I can't disclose who :)) 2009-03-25T04:27:54 awwww 2009-03-25T04:28:23 will i be able to use kde and stuff, on top of glendix? 2009-03-25T04:28:36 * uriel shakes head 2009-03-25T04:28:57 thedoctor: anyway, that should give you an idea of bs's popularity in the labs :) 2009-03-25T04:29:24 uriel: yeah, I never thought anyone there really cared for him. 2009-03-25T04:29:45 (on the other hand, don't get me wrong, people like dennis and brian are real friendly and get along with almost everyone, so bs was never universally hated) 2009-03-25T04:30:20 yeah, they seem nice. I can imagine Ken wanting to strangle him, though. 2009-03-25T04:30:43 I've never seen any interviews with him, but from some of the pictures I've seen, he looks like he gets rather grumpy. 2009-03-25T04:31:19 ken is very peaceful, but his sarcastic comments can kill ;) 2009-03-25T04:31:21 and he's definitely from the KISS crowd, not the cargo-culters Bjarne like 2009-03-25T04:31:54 uriel: have you seen anything on C++0x? 2009-03-25T04:32:22 thedoctor: I try to stay as far away from that stuff as I can, from what I have heard even C++ people think that thing is too damned messed up 2009-03-25T04:32:36 I swear it's turning into Java. "Hmm, let's add everything we can. Too bad there aren't more people to help! We have to cut out features!" 2009-03-25T04:32:58 uriel: I watch it just vaguely to see what horrors are going on. 2009-03-25T04:33:14 like lambdas and a ton of syntactic sugar... 2009-03-25T04:34:10 constructors that can take a variadic list of arguments so you can do "vector v = {1,3,4,5} 2009-03-25T04:34:29 well, what seems to me is that java and C++ and converging 2009-03-25T04:34:52 java used to be a rather simple (although stupid) language, with some insanely byzantine libraries 2009-03-25T04:35:23 it still does seem rather simple 2009-03-25T04:35:25 c++ used to be an insane language nobody fully understood, but had libraries that didn't reach the level of complex convolution of java 2009-03-25T04:35:51 c++ is still an insane language... they haven't really fixed all that much in the language itself 2009-03-25T04:35:52 now java language complexity is catching up with c++, and c++ libraries are catching up with java libs 2009-03-25T04:35:57 at least not that I've seen. 2009-03-25T04:36:12 thedoctor: oh, I mean that you are getting the worst of both worlds on both languages now :) 2009-03-25T04:36:25 ah, I see. 2009-03-25T04:36:26 not that either is getting any better 2009-03-25T04:36:42 that would be a total imposibility 2009-03-25T04:36:56 yeah, I found it funny that for a long time, Java pundits claimed that all you needed was synchronized and that that was easier. 2009-03-25T04:37:10 and now java has a threading library that is almost exactly like pthreads. 2009-03-25T04:37:16 and from what I have heard (I don't follow java closely either), it has become rather messed up after they tried to catch up with C#'s 'features' 2009-03-25T04:37:33 uriel: yeah, there are tons of problems with generics. 2009-03-25T04:37:42 they rely on type erasure. Which is pretty nasty. 2009-03-25T04:37:59 and generics don't play well with the autoboxing idioticy 2009-03-25T04:38:00 then there's the problem of built-ins not being in the object hierarchy, so they have to be packaged 2009-03-25T04:38:11 same thought there. 2009-03-25T04:38:30 as for threading 2009-03-25T04:38:33 it is all pathetic.. 2009-03-25T04:38:57 synchronized or pthreads, it is the same stupid deadlock-nightmare shit 2009-03-25T04:39:26 yes, but I think it's amusing that they kept saying "we're fine!" and then just ripped off the library everyone had been using in C for years. 2009-03-25T04:39:29 only thing out there with sane concurrency other than p9p's libthread and limbo is erlang 2009-03-25T04:39:36 (and stackless python) 2009-03-25T04:39:42 C++ existed for plan 9 once 2009-03-25T04:39:46 but it was like Cfront 2009-03-25T04:40:05 it was cfront 2009-03-25T04:40:08 uriel: functional languages make parallelization fairly trivial as well 2009-03-25T04:40:10 * leimy has been doing erlang at work for over a year and it's been great 2009-03-25T04:40:14 because cfront was written at the labs 2009-03-25T04:40:15 uriel: unsurprising :-) 2009-03-25T04:40:27 we used to have cfront around somewhere on our AIX boxes 2009-03-25T04:40:33 back in school 2009-03-25T04:40:51 uriel: thedoctor then what is an effective threading lib one must use ? 2009-03-25T04:41:01 thedoctor: I don't think it is an issue of functional vs procedural 2009-03-25T04:41:08 it is a question of having the right model 2009-03-25T04:41:23 codo: libthread 2009-03-25T04:41:24 I'm not saying it is, I was just continuing your list 2009-03-25T04:41:55 well, erlang is functional, but other functional languages don't have the same concurrency 2009-03-25T04:42:34 uriel: from what I know about erlang, I'd call it in between... it's a lot like prolog 2009-03-25T04:42:42 leimy: what do you work on with erlang? 2009-03-25T04:43:08 thedoctor: yes, but the key is the ipc system, which is a lot like CSP 2009-03-25T04:43:16 uriel: Software used to manage rack infrastructure hardware and our container products 2009-03-25T04:43:41 uriel: I went to a presentation on erlang which completely skipped the ipc implementation :\ 2009-03-25T04:43:48 functional programming, in a pure sense, makes concurrency and parallelism less tricky due to the complete lack of shared state.... but you don't need functional programming to get that :-) 2009-03-25T04:44:00 leimy: true 2009-03-25T04:44:09 leimy: exactly 2009-03-25T04:44:12 you can use limbo ;P 2009-03-25T04:44:20 Limbo does a great job of that 2009-03-25T04:44:28 I know people who want Limbo without Inferno :-) 2009-03-25T04:44:30 (although I have heard people say you could consider limbo 'functional' ;)) 2009-03-25T04:45:01 I've also written a good bit of Haskell 2009-03-25T04:45:11 haskell is amazing. 2009-03-25T04:45:17 haskell is mind bending :-) 2009-03-25T04:45:29 well, that would be less of an issue if one could have a hosted inferno that integrated better with the host and was less buggy 2009-03-25T04:45:30 Concurrent Haskell is equally neat :-) 2009-03-25T04:45:48 uriel: yes. 2009-03-25T04:46:23 thedoctor: I don't get the point of talking about erlang without it's message passing :-) 2009-03-25T04:46:35 er its 2009-03-25T04:46:35 leimy: it was a crappy presentation. 2009-03-25T04:46:58 they talked about it, just not about how it really worked. 2009-03-25T04:47:09 it was more like "this is how you can write things in erlang" 2009-03-25T04:47:15 How it really works depends on the language implementation 2009-03-25T04:47:18 of which I know of 4 :-) 2009-03-25T04:47:40 There's a guy who has a blog who re-implemented a lot of erlang already in a few months 2009-03-25T04:47:58 leimy: I heard something about people trying to make it easy to formally verify everything written in haskell, btw 2009-03-25T04:48:00 there's a tiny erlang distribution floating around there somewhere, there's normal Beam and HiPE :-) 2009-03-25T04:48:13 thedoctor: coq I think is a way to do that 2009-03-25T04:49:08 Curry-Howard isomorphisms :-) 2009-03-25T04:49:15 yep 2009-03-25T04:49:24 http://www.alpheccar.org/en/posts/show/70 2009-03-25T04:49:25 Title: Djinn, Coq, Monad and a bit of HaskellHaskell Code by HsColou (at www.alpheccar.org) 2009-03-25T04:49:36 There's a bot in #haskell that can do djinn 2009-03-25T04:49:40 I'm not sure about coq 2009-03-25T04:49:47 helps that haskell has actual currying 2009-03-25T04:50:03 yeah... does it by default :-) 2009-03-25T04:50:14 maps to the lambda-calculus pretty readily :-) 2009-03-25T04:50:31 which makes proving things much, much easier. 2009-03-25T04:50:56 also, the squeezing out of side effects through monads 2009-03-25T04:51:01 yeah there's the pi-calculus too, a language for modeling concurrency, and apparently a way to translate pi-calculus to lambda-calculus. 2009-03-25T04:51:10 interesting.. 2009-03-25T04:51:16 yeah... it's all the same stuff 2009-03-25T04:51:38 yep, eventually it all comes down to one thing. 2009-03-25T04:52:00 Monads are a bit tricky to grasp from end to end if you don't know the Category Theory behind them... but I'm still struggling with them in that respect, but I can write one because I know the laws :-) 2009-03-25T04:52:19 yeah, the more you work with them the more you grok them. 2009-03-25T04:52:44 And it's interesting to note that Monads are all over the place in places you didn't expect. A scheme programmer might like continuation passing style, but they probably don't know that continuations form a monad. 2009-03-25T04:53:08 LINQ from Microsoft is a dumbed-down Monad 2009-03-25T04:54:04 anyway this is all offtopic :-) 2009-03-25T04:54:08 but I like this stuff :-) 2009-03-25T04:54:26 luckily we are a small channel with a distinct lack of topic-nazis 2009-03-25T04:54:42 heh 2009-03-25T04:54:50 thedoctor: so what's your background? 2009-03-25T04:54:53 CS 2009-03-25T04:54:54 pretty interesting stuffs. Shows what I don't know :) 2009-03-25T04:55:03 despite being a CS masters grad. :| 2009-03-25T04:55:13 thedoctor: well I mean, student, professional... etc? 2009-03-25T04:55:15 still undergrad... almost done with that 2009-03-25T04:55:27 although I have worked a bit in industry 2009-03-25T04:55:32 and will be doing so again this summer 2009-03-25T04:55:34 cool 2009-03-25T04:56:08 codo: there's a whole deluge of junk out there that's worth looking at, and an exponential amount of other marketing buzzword crap that's completely useless :-) 2009-03-25T04:56:15 yeah, I also run a lab at school, where I get to yell at freshmen for thinking windows and java are better than everything. 2009-03-25T04:56:33 sadly we have a lot of java coding going on at work. 2009-03-25T04:56:57 it's amazing how many organizations were duped by Java's lies. 2009-03-25T04:56:58 But I've gotten control of the system we're building in terms of architecture, and Java is now just a detail we can replace later :-) 2009-03-25T04:56:58 leimy: java, C# are there at every workplace. 2009-03-25T04:57:09 codo: not really. 2009-03-25T04:57:18 I worked at a place that was C. Just C. 2009-03-25T04:57:34 thedoctor: ok, my bad, let me rephrase. 2009-03-25T04:57:38 Java is one of those "good enough" things, no one cares to replace 2009-03-25T04:57:39 I meant almost every workplace uses that. 2009-03-25T04:58:01 well I was almost 100% C when I started here 2009-03-25T04:58:02 leimy: well, as I've seen it, usually some moron goes "It's so much easier/faster/safer" 2009-03-25T04:58:05 with some C++ 2009-03-25T04:58:05 if you want to work with systems and low level products, C is heavily used 2009-03-25T04:58:13 else they tend to go for C++/Java/C# 2009-03-25T04:58:18 it's not easier, or safer... nor does it cost less to maintain 2009-03-25T04:58:33 in fact, I find OOP to be a maintenance nightmare for product lifecycles 2009-03-25T04:58:35 luckily the place I worked would never beable to port their software to Java or run the jvm on shitty printer hardware, so 2009-03-25T04:58:48 especially if you have short-lead times for product changes 2009-03-25T04:59:05 thedoctor: I got reject from thoughtworks who said my resume lacked OOP skills they find necessary ;) 2009-03-25T04:59:15 I found a scheme environment called armpit for embedded ARM :-) 2009-03-25T04:59:25 leimy: every time I see someone who needs help with OO, I think, "you know, I think just looking at this as aggregate data would be easier" 2009-03-25T04:59:46 thedoctor: aggregate data means ? like structs ? 2009-03-25T04:59:51 codo: yes 2009-03-25T04:59:53 :) 2009-03-25T05:00:04 the problem with OO is it encourages naive thinking that you've got all your bases covered :-) 2009-03-25T05:00:24 until something explodes or the abstraction starts leaking... 2009-03-25T05:00:31 the result is you find a new requirement 3 years later (or sooner) that forces you to change some base class, and then pollute everything below 2009-03-25T05:00:48 so they "invented" this Aspect Oriented Programming stuff to patch the wholes. 2009-03-25T05:00:56 break the entire hierarchy, then have everything need to be rebuilt... yeah. 2009-03-25T05:00:58 hah, and then say oops helps in encapsulation. 2009-03-25T05:01:03 s/then/they 2009-03-25T05:01:16 and clear abstraction. 2009-03-25T05:01:17 Aspect Oriented Programming was "invented" for Java and C++ to prevent breaking the hierarchy by allowing you to weave code around or replace functions using some kinds of pattern matching 2009-03-25T05:01:22 codo: in C++, if you change certain things in a class, all code that uses that class has to be recompiled. 2009-03-25T05:01:31 thedoctor: yeah. :) 2009-03-25T05:01:38 leimy: it's starting to seep into templates now as well. 2009-03-25T05:01:45 This technique existed in Lisp in the 1970s though :-) 2009-03-25T05:01:53 C++0x adds these things called concepts to help with type-restrictions for templates 2009-03-25T05:01:57 but because it now works in java people think it's new :-) 2009-03-25T05:02:09 then gives you this awfully AOP-smelling thing called a concept_map to make things work without breaking into them. 2009-03-25T05:02:18 template concept checking has been around a while, but never really implemented as they needed it. 2009-03-25T05:02:30 yeah, it's nasty :-) 2009-03-25T05:02:43 like you can run an STL algorithm like "stable_sort" 2009-03-25T05:02:46 leimy: yeah, it's now going to be in the language, instead of the restraints class crap most people were using 2009-03-25T05:02:50 and you can give it list::iterators 2009-03-25T05:02:52 but it won't work 2009-03-25T05:03:04 because stable_sort requires the concept of random_access_iterator 2009-03-25T05:03:05 yeah, since they aren't random-access 2009-03-25T05:03:10 and list::iterator is bidirectional only :-) 2009-03-25T05:03:16 right, and concepts will fix it all, yay! 2009-03-25T05:03:22 the compiler will compile it anyway 2009-03-25T05:03:26 the runtime will run it 2009-03-25T05:03:32 and then give you a billion line error. 2009-03-25T05:03:33 and you'll just get the wrong result :-) 2009-03-25T05:03:38 concepts to the rescue :-) 2009-03-25T05:03:50 actually, will it run? 2009-03-25T05:03:54 I think it will 2009-03-25T05:03:57 it should eventually have a type mismatch 2009-03-25T05:04:02 oh it depends 2009-03-25T05:04:18 on whether stable sort uses the operators or functions from random_access_iterator or not :-) 2009-03-25T05:04:39 I know standard sort() blows up. 2009-03-25T05:04:43 at compile time 2009-03-25T05:04:47 Yet templates in C++ are tons more powerful than Java Generics 2009-03-25T05:04:57 you can do disgusting things 2009-03-25T05:05:09 leimy: correction: you can do *anything* 2009-03-25T05:05:13 it's Turing complete 2009-03-25T05:05:19 yes 2009-03-25T05:05:21 it's a tiny lisp :-) 2009-03-25T05:05:41 heh 2009-03-25T05:07:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/77557 <-- C++ program using only templates and a forced error to spit out a result 2009-03-25T05:07:47 Title: Paste number 77557: coin counting in C++ templates, answer given in an error message (at paste.lisp.org) 2009-03-25T05:07:52 it doesn't even build a binary 2009-03-25T05:08:11 but it can count the number of ways to make change from a certain amount of money from certain denominations of coins 2009-03-25T05:08:27 BWAHAHAHA 2009-03-25T05:08:30 I wrote most of that and got a little help optimizing it from others... it's pure evil :-) 2009-03-25T05:09:59 basically you have to express the solution recursively, and match on stop conditions using template specialization. 2009-03-25T05:11:11 heh, C++ template-programming, the virtual machine of the future! 2009-03-25T05:11:49 heh 2009-03-25T05:12:17 I think that problem is an exercise in the SICP book 2009-03-25T05:12:54 what a good book/course 2009-03-25T05:13:10 yeah and it's free so there's no excuse :-) 2009-03-25T05:13:17 yep 2009-03-25T05:13:47 anyway... I'm heading to bed... I'm really interested in the success of Glendix 2009-03-25T05:13:57 so I should shut up :-) 2009-03-25T05:14:16 night 2009-03-25T05:14:28 *** leimy has left #glendix 2009-03-25T05:21:14 thedoctor: how long you work at office ? 2009-03-25T05:21:16 usually ? 2009-03-25T05:24:51 glendix patches said irq_vectors.h should be in directory "arch/x86/asm/include/", but kernel- 2.6.24 has no such directory, where should irq_vectors.h be put? 2009-03-25T05:36:35 *** thedoctor has quit IRC 2009-03-25T06:09:11 *** rsa_md5 has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T06:10:21 *** rsa_md5 has left #glendix 2009-03-25T06:20:12 *** codo has quit IRC 2009-03-25T06:53:42 *** diegoviola has quit IRC 2009-03-25T08:26:22 i got a ping but i dont know when whee what and how... anyone remember? :D 2009-03-25T10:43:57 07:35 < Murmuria> jyujin_, uriel? http://groups.google.com/group/glendix/browse_thread/thread/1dd59853001fd728 2009-03-25T10:43:58 Title: about "Create a skeletal Distribution" - glendix | Google Groups (at groups.google.com) 2009-03-25T10:44:00 This? 2009-03-25T10:44:20 That 7:35's the same timezone as yourself btw. 2009-03-25T11:12:21 *** henry_huang has left #glendix 2009-03-25T11:59:45 *** KillerX has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T12:55:18 *** HenryHuang has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T13:25:31 Thinking about the cpu command in Plan 9. 2009-03-25T13:26:13 There's no reason why that shouldn't work for ordinary Unix programs too, right? 2009-03-25T13:26:35 (Apart from the whole need to be root thing in Linux) 2009-03-25T13:41:00 sure, you can emulate cpu with ssh and friends 2009-03-25T14:27:45 can you? 2009-03-25T14:27:48 * uriel isn't so sure 2009-03-25T15:44:33 *** HenryHuang has quit IRC 2009-03-25T16:14:02 *** thedoctor has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T16:21:17 *** Murmuria has quit IRC 2009-03-25T18:12:22 *** Murmuria has joined #glendix 2009-03-25T18:30:12 does anyone know where KillerX is keeping channel logs?